OT: John Frost (CO 2nd batallion / 1st Para Brigade)

[KenchiSulla]

I finished reading John Frosts war memoirs (good read) and he made two remarks that I found particularly interesting.

The first one was not just a compliment to Patton's sixth army, but also a sneer to the British 2nd Army

"Then, almost as if by magic, the American spearheads were down below. Highly professional, tanks and halftracks, always covered by fire, all under control... and all the way the soldiers were singing the praises of 'Old Blood and Guts' George Patton. If ever an army developed a peak of efficiency, this was it. Everything worked. There were no delays. If something was going to happen at a certain time, happen it did. Their equipment was in first-class working order for if anything even looked like failing, it was immediately replaced".. And "All ranks of this army when they saw our red berets, would say: Arnhem. Aye. We'd have gotten through. Yes, sir. We'd have gotten through.. I could not help believing that they would have. There was nothing slow or ponderous about them and they didn't stop for tea or the night for that matter.."

Another interesting observation

"The same voice (Browning) that had so firmly said to Roy Urquhart "Arnhem Bridge. And hold it, had said to James Gavin "the Groesbeek Heights. Nijmegen bridge later". And "Now the 82nd, trained at vast trouble and expense to drop by parachute over obstacles, had to cross the river in the teeth of intense opposition in flimsy canvas folding boats that they had never seen before. When so bravely it was done, it was too late.."

The objectives were the bridges.. Frost biggest frustration with the operation was the fact that it was the fear of losses that prevented drops close to the bridges (while he also remarks that he finds it strange that his brigade was not allowed to jump of south of the bridge while the Polish brigade later, and without element of surprise, was dropped closely to both the railroad bridge and road bridge, now either blown or reinforced....) but it is the same fear that has caused large losses without much return on investment...

[KenchiSulla]

One little fact is also interesting to share. It is related to the script of the movie "a bridge to far". Frost says it is actually pretty accurate (which is nice to know) except for one part:

"I had only one adamant objection - to the treatment given to an incident when the Germans sent one of our own captured sappers back to me with a message to the effect that, as we were in such a hopeless position, would I personally meet the German commander, under a flag of truce, to discuss surrender. I said, Tell them to go to hell. Sergeant Halliwell, the sapper, replied Do I really have to go back to tell them? In answered, No it is up to you. If you would like to stay and continue fighting, they will get the message anyway. He stayed.

The film script, however, demanded that I (or rather the actor playing me) should actually meet the German general and tell him that I had no room for him or his soldiers as prisoners, and so he would have to continue fighting. Magnificent cinema, perhaps, but so divorced from reality that it was laughable.

In the end a very unsatisfactory and most unrealistic compromise was reached, in which one of 'my' officers sarcastically informed the Germans that 'we' could not accept their surrender. A few years later, when I asked Heinz Harmel, the G.O.C. of the 10th SS, what he and the Germans thought of the film, he mentioned this particular episode as being quite ridiculous."

[morganbj]

Patton never commanded the Sixth Army. It was in the pacific.

Patton commanded the Seventh in Sicily, the Third in France and Germany, and after the war, the Fifteenth.

[KenchiSulla]

A mistake on the authors side, no doubt. He wrote this section years after the original release so it is not too strange he makes a mistake. I've checked where Frost was at the time of his liberation. It was a PoW hospital liberated by the 11th Armored division, VIII Corps, 3rd Army (Patton)...

[paullus99]

I'm sure it was just an oversight on CF's part......Could a US force have done better than 2nd Army during the Arhem campaign? Probably, but the since the operational area was squarely in the British area, it wasn't like it was ever going to happen.

I do find it stunning, that particular campaign occurred in September, barely a month after the breakout from Normandy where the German Army was completely smashed and driven all the way back to their own border - yet they were able to mount an extremely credible defense against first rate Allied formations.

It speaks volumes for the fighting stamina of the average German soldier and many (if not most) of their mid-level officers.

[zakblood]

Frosts was a strange man tbh, and had some strange idea's, was liked or even loved by his men, but had a poor ability to listen to others and appreciate the bigger picture, my favour commander as my love is market garden and airborne warfare...

my mums dad was in the Polish brigade there as well, he didn't make it back, like many others...

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: zakblood

Frosts was a strange man tbh, and had some strange idea's, was liked or even loved by his men, but had a poor ability to listen to others and appreciate the bigger picture, my favour commander as my love is market garden and airborne warfare...

my mums dad was in the Polish brigade there as well, he didn't make it back, like many others...

Hi Zakblood, on what source do you base the "poor ability to listen" conclusion?

[timmyab]

With the benefit of hindsight it does seem obvious that the plan for Arhnam was fatally flawed.
They probably should have landed a parachute brigade close to the bridges and landed another brigade as close as it was possible to land gliders, which I presume would be the actual LZ?
Given the distance from the DZ it's odd that they didn't try to secure the bridges with an advance force, especially after the successful seizure of Pegasus bridge just a few months before.

[zakblood]

Frost and the other commanders were told many times on many different occasions by quite a few different people about what to expect and what would and wouldn't work, but still he went on regardless, while he didn't suffer because of it in rank but did suffer some comments later on regarding his failing at the operational level of his combat command...

http://www.pegasusarchive.org/arnhem/tatham_warter.htm

too many links to post tbh, but the subject is in the past

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: zakblood

Frost and the other commanders were told many times on many different occasions by quite a few different people about what to expect and what would and wouldn't work, but still he went on regardless, while he didn't suffer because of it in rank but did suffer some comments later on regarding his failing at the operational level of his combat command...

http://www.pegasusarchive.org/arnhem/tatham_warter.htm

too many links to post tbh, but the subject is in the past

Aye, it's in the past but I have to say, I still don't understand what you mean. He was battalion commander. He had his orders, his men were trained and motivated and he jumped. His unit reached the objective and held it for 80 hours.

[zakblood]

yes is true, and did it with great courage as well, but maybe in hindsight it would have been better with what he knew to not have gone at all, but then again they would have just promoted someone else maybe an sent them in his place, but yes i see your point there is no point in denying his place in history etc or the achievements of him or his men, but for me it was always a bridge too far, and he knew it, and so did Stanisław Franciszek Sosabowski the Polish commander and a good read for him is http://www.derekcrowe.com/post.aspx?id=145


but i'll leave it at that tbh as this is my field of fancy, and for me the most played battle i do, and have been doing since 20+ years now, on many formats..

full booklet,

http://www.polishheritagesociety.co.uk/ ... Itemid=159


funny how it was a British plan, and run by British commanders, if it happened to have gone well it would have been them who took the glory, but when it didn't in the end someone had to take the blame, and who got it? not a British commander[:(]

oh and btw i was born in the UK[X(][8|]

[KenchiSulla]

Yes, he knew it, Sosabowski knew it. But they went anyway...It was their job. What happened to Sosabowski and his Polish brigade after the battle was unfair and a disgrace. No doubt about that..

I actually live just about 80 km from the battle site. I know it pretty well (last visit was the 18th of September, this year. There were a few veterans visiting. The numbers have been dwindling of course)

Link to a thread I made 2 years ago:

Oosterbeek

[ultradave]

I am in the 82d Airborne Association as a former paratrooper (service/comradeship organization) and a few years ago we were sent by the mayor of Nijmegan, Holland a tape to watch. It was the dedication of a newly refurbished monument to the American paratroopers who fought there. The mayor spoke to the camera, and described how all children are taught in school what the paratroopers there did, and their sacrifices, "so that Holland will never forget" (his words). There were schoolchildren at at the dedication. It was so touching and heartfelt. The mayor was almost in tears talking about it and it brought out a few tears to these old hard paratroopers too. most of all to one of our more senior members, who was there. He jumped with the 82d into Sicily, Normandy and Holland and fought at Nijmegan.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: zakblood

yes is true, and did it with great courage as well, but maybe in hindsight it would have been better with what he knew to not have gone at all, but then again they would have just promoted someone else maybe an sent them in his place, but yes i see your point there is no point in denying his place in history etc or the achievements of him or his men, but for me it was always a bridge too far, and he knew it, and so did Stanisław Franciszek Sosabowski the Polish commander and a good read for him is http://www.derekcrowe.com/post.aspx?id=145


but i'll leave it at that tbh as this is my field of fancy, and for me the most played battle i do, and have been doing since 20+ years now, on many formats..

full booklet,

http://www.polishheritagesociety.co.uk/ ... Itemid=159

funny how it was a British plan, and run by British commanders, if it happened to have gone well it would have been them who took the glory, but when it didn't in the end someone had to take the blame, and who got it? not a British commander[:(]

oh and btw i was born in the UK[X(][8|]

warspite1

So who got the blame then? I have only ever seen Monty blamed for the operation.

[zakblood]

page 11 of the last link said it all, Sosabowski took the blame and the shame to his grave

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: zakblood

page 11 of the last link said it all, Sosabowski took the blame and the shame to his grave

warspite1

Very sad. But at least when it comes to apportioning the blame now, no one mentions Sosabowski. Market Garden was Monty's mistake and he, rightly, gets the blame.

[zakblood]

i wouldn't blame anyone tbh other than the time, no one person, not even Monty had all the facts, or the ability to deal with all the information that was coming there way from elsewhere and Bletchley park, Declassified doc now coming to light throw a totally different picture on what was and what wasn't known at the time, so if you're going to the top, Monty wasn't the man who blame should have fallen on but the staff around him and higher up, the PM for one and his staff, who knew a lot more but because they didn't want to loose there code breaking secrets wasn't too good at sharing them to everyone who needed to know always....


but this could go on for ever tbh, as it's not a blame game, it's a game[8|][:D][;)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: zakblood

i wouldn't blame anyone tbh other than the time, no one person, not even Monty had all the facts, or the ability to deal with all the information that was coming there way from elsewhere and Bletchley park, Declassified doc now coming to light throw a totally different picture on what was and what wasn't known at the time, so if you're going to the top, Monty wasn't the man who blame should have fallen on but the staff around him and higher up, the PM for one and his staff, who knew a lot more but because they didn't want to loose there code breaking secrets wasn't too good at sharing them to everyone who needed to know always....


but this could go on for ever tbh, as it's not a blame game, it's a game[8|][:D][;)]

Warspite1

Someone always gets the blame in life - not always the right person sadly - but someone gets it......

E.g. Should Churchill get the blame for Gallipoli just because he had one of the very few strategically brilliant ideas of WWI? Or should the blame be taken by those who actually bungled the actual operation?

[morganbj]

ORIGINAL: zakblood

Frost and the other commanders were told many times on many different occasions by quite a few different people about what to expect and what would and wouldn't work, but still he went on regardless, while he didn't suffer because of it in rank but did suffer some comments later on regarding his failing at the operational level of his combat command...

http://www.pegasusarchive.org/arnhem/tatham_warter.htm

too many links to post tbh, but the subject is in the past

Somehow I get the impression that you were never in the military.

[zakblood]

no comment as tbh yours in off topic