Aerial ASW question

[Dili]

I think i read in some post while ago that the weapons used for ASW aerial mission are taken from extended range slots 11>20.
Is this confirmed?

So don't i need to put a 64 filter in 1>10 slots?

[el cid again]

For safety I recommend using the ASW filter when you intend an ASW loadout.
Also, I think ASW weapons should be defined on a different basis than
other bombs or weapons are.

For WWII purposes (modern ASW is considerably evolved from that period),
an ASW weapon (regardless of type) should have an anti-armor and armor penetration
value of 19 (for 19mm = the design standard for Hedgehog and other wartime
weapons because that is the hull thickness of a German Type VII and Type XIX
submarine). Code thinks "effect" = maximum depth of the weapon: while it is
not clear this is used for air ASW weapons at all, assuming it is or some day
will be one should always define it. Typical values are 220 for early war Japanese
weapons, 300 for many old Allied weapons, 600 for more modern Allied weapons,
and generally unlimited for mortars and spigot mortars and similar devices.
This leaves accuracy. IF one has a standard definition for penetration, THEN
accuracy can be the area in which one gets that amount of penetration - typical
values being 7 - 9 meters from the weapon to target at detonation time - times
the number of DC in a pattern (assuming you use patterns at all). These yield
very small values (1,2,3 etc) for tiny patterns of small DC (2, 3 and 4 being
typical - in particular applicable to aircraft). And more reasonable values per
shot for large patterns (5, 10, 14 and 26 being typical for RN on good vessels) -
yielding values in the range 7 to 22 for small DC. The most effective ASW
weapon of the war was a US ASW torpedo (called a mine for deception purposes)
- so effective production was reduced because not many were needed - and it remains
in service with some nations to this day! This weapon can be simulated if one
calculates the area the weapon can cover and uses that for the accuracy value.

[Dili]

Did you answer my question?

Btw i have always read in the forum that aerial ASW weapons are not different from bombs. The game routine doesn't recognize ASW weapons capabilities while being employed by aircraft.

[Alfred]

Dili,
 
Either Symon,  Don or michaelm would be far better placed to answer your query with 100% certainty but I think I will probably suffice.
 
1.  Just to refresh your memory, you should reread this October 2014 thread where I made several posts regarding use of the alternate bombloads.
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3712728&mpage=1&key=alternate%2Cbomb%2Cload
 
 
2.  You should definitely read the hyperlinked thread I provided in my first post in the above thread.  Specifically look for post #4 in the second thread as it is from michaelm who points out that the filters used in the weapon slots 11-20 must follow the same order as used in weapon slots 1-10.
 
 
3.  Following on from point 2 but understanding I don't have access to the code, I think you must have a dedicated ASW weapon in the first 1-10 weapon slots and then also a dedicated ASW weapon in the same position in the second 11-20 weapon slots.  IOW if the ASW is in weapon slot #3, it also has to be in slot #13.  To not do so potentially runs into problems for these speculated reasons.
 
(a)  I haven't checked every aircraft class but I strongly suspect that it is not possible (other than for the special weapons slots at #19 and #20) to skip a weapon slot ie use #1, #2 then skip #3 leaving it blank, then use #4 etc without causing some problems
 
(b) if (a) is correct and bearing mind that the extended weapon slots must follow the same order as the normal weapon slots, then you have no option but to include a dedicated ASW weapon in the first ten slots
 
 
4.  Page 151 of the manual points out that aircraft conducting either a naval search or ASW mission, in the event they spot an enemy TF and also attack, will use their extended bomb load.  It is silent on whether they would use their normal bomb load if on a different type of mission.  Undoubtedly this is due to the filters not being workable in the code at the time of writing the manual.
 
 
5.  Symon has previously cautioned that an air dropped depth charge must not be treated as if it were a ship dropped depth charge because the air and naval ASW combat algorithms are different.  Air dropped depth charges are seen by the game code as bombs.
 
 
Alfred

[Dili]

Thanks Alfred. So the filters that exist in equivalent 11-20 slots must remain in 1-10 equivalent ones, wpn 6 must have same filter as wpn 16 and implies that filter 64 must be in both normal and extended.

What about using same filter twice if we want two bomb types for one mission?

In some situations i was with mixed bomb types in 11-20 and one bomb type in 1-10 , so for it to work i'll have to make 2 slots with same bombs model for 1-10. Say:

#16 4x500lb #17 4x250lb follows #6 4x250lb 7# 4x250lb instead of just #6 8x250lb .

[Alfred]

If you look at the several screenshots in the older (embedded) link I gave you will see filter 02 is used for more than weapon slot.  There is no reason why any other filter would be treated any differently by the code.  So yes, if you wanted to have more than one dedicated ASW weapon, that should be possible, although whether you should have more than one ASW weapon is a different issue.[:)]
 
I don't think you should be carrying more weapons in the equivalent extended weapon slot.  IOW, if weapon slot #6 has only 4x250lb, then slot #16 should have only 2x250lb rather than the 4x500lb which you gave as an exemplar.  I am assuming that the code only automatically halves filter 00 on the normal weapon slots when no corresponding data is found in the extended weapon slot.  IOW, if you specify a specific weapon using a specific filter other than the generic 00 in the extended slot, I don't think the code automatically halves the weapon.  But again one of the devs with access to the code would be in a better position to advise.
 
Alfred

[Symon]

As Alfred points out, the ASW filter just denotes devices that will be preferentially carried on an ASW "mission". It could be a brick, a pair of really smelly socks, or a bowling ball. The air algorithm will do a load-out and drop it depending on the device parameters. It's a computer algorithm, it's not a human selection process.

The air algorithm does NOT incorporate an ASW profile. The ASW ship algorithm is NOT incorporated into the air paradigm. One size does not fit all. It's really very simple once one gets the concept. If one doesn't get the concept, or simply wishes to howl against it, I recommend a two month course of Hatha Yoga and some blood pressure medications. Ciao. JWE

[Dili]

ORIGINAL: Alfred


I don't think you should be carrying more weapons in the equivalent extended weapon slot.  IOW, if weapon slot #6 has only 4x250lb, then slot #16 should have only 2x250lb rather than the 4x500lb which you gave as an exemplar.  I am assuming that the code only automatically halves filter 00 on the normal weapon slots when no corresponding data is found in the extended weapon slot.  IOW, if you specify a specific weapon using a specific filter other than the generic 00 in the extended slot, I don't think the code automatically halves the weapon.  But again one of the devs with access to the code would be in a better position to advise.

Alfred

Sorry i mixed things up concerning slot designations, i read the 11-20 button above 1-10 and just mixed the designations thinking below it was instead 11-20.

So for completeness:
#6 4x500lb #7 4x250lb follows #16 4x250lb 17# 4x250lb instead of just #16 8x250lb .


It would be expected that game respects the quantity instead of halving when it is specifically set up. But like you said a dev would know better. Thanks.