Amazed at the german invasion response

Gary Grigsby’s War in the West 1943-45 is the most ambitious and detailed computer wargame on the Western Front of World War II ever made. Starting with the Summer 1943 invasions of Sicily and Italy and proceeding through the invasions of France and the drive into Germany, War in the West brings you all the Allied campaigns in Western Europe and the capability to re-fight the Western Front according to your plan.

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Jajusha
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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by Jajusha »

ORIGINAL: mike mcmann

Ill give that the recon may not be 100 percent. The issue is the move interdict. I mean, they should be able to move about a max of 16 hexes if fully up. Subtract for the interdiction and only units within about 4 or five hexes should be able to even get to the beach head let alone deliberate attack....

Why?
We are talking weekly turns.
It would have to rain 500lb bombs day and night across all northern france to force a rested, fueled, moralized PzDiv to only move 40 miles (64KM) in 7 days. Thats 5.7 miles per 24 hours, or 300m per hour in a 7 day period.

Again, its weekly turns, simulating day and night movement. As it is, moving in clear terrain, under lvl9 interdiction, a PZDiv can only move 16 hexes (and reach the destination fatiqued and with 0 AP.

I know you want to land and move from the beaches, just as you folks are eager to take all of Italy by October 43, but come one, give the little guy a break :p

On a more real note now. Under the perfect interdiction cover, the Axis player should have 2 Panzer contingents. 1 in Renes, 1 in Amiens. (I Highlighted the 16 hexes radius from these locations in the screenshot bellow). This will give reaction time to be at the most likely beaches at the end of the week after the allies land (but not attack). If you want to move forward, well, push, odds are in your favour.





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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by Joel Billings »

I'll keep an eye out for those saves as I'd really like to see the situation on the German side after the invasion and see what the AI does vs what a human player could do.

We've taken several shortcuts with the AI movement. The AI cannot analyze the situation like a human player. Even if it could and tried to, it would make the AI phase take much longer than it already does. So Gary strives to build an AI that does not play by the exact rules that human players do, but also doesn't take advantage of it to the extent that it's obviously cheating and doing things a human player can't do. My understanding is that units moving toward the front line from the rear will follow the basic rules and be impacted by interdiction. I just confirmed that this is Gary's understanding as well. We're not sure about the units getting on and off trains and how much it pays for this so there might be some cheat there, but Gary says the AI will try to get off the trains outside of heavily interdicted areas and march in. Units on the front line or within a hex of the front can do what we call the shuffle dance and reposition along the front without being hit by interdiction. This shuffle is a late phase adjustment that tries to balance the forces along the lines. We found that this kind of shuffle is very important for the AI, and is just too difficult and time consuming to make the AI follow all the movement rules and suffer interdiction. Even with the shuffle, the AI isn't as smart as a human player and often leaves weak points. In addition, the AI suffers horrible command penalties in combat because it doesn't do as good a job keeping command integrity with its units as a human can. This also weakens it's chances at reserve commitments.

Gary has already worked on reducing the amount of teleporting of units from bad situations based on several saves we received that showed us how this could still happen. The bottom line is that in order to provide a decent opponent we have to do some cheating. But we work hard at trying to limit the cheating to moves that come close to the net results that a good player could do. When we get clear cases of the AI going too far, we try to fix the AI to avoid the obvious cheats. It's a balancing act, and getting saves from players helps us improve the game. Without a save, I can't say whether this case was a case of overt AI cheating or just a good reaction like Pelton's in Belphegor's screenshot. A lot depends on just how much interdiction you have placed down and how deep it is behind enemy lines. The D-Day campaign is a case where good deep interdiction can make it difficult for German units to get to the front on the first turn (and those that do get to the front do arrive somewhat shot up).

In Belphegor's case, all I can say is that Gary's answer would be to use heavy interdiction on the front and to the rear. This will make the front line Germans susceptible to attacks and allow the Allies to expand the beachhead. It will also make it very hard for the Germans to counterattack. It will also blow up freight moving to and from depots (hitting the nearby railyards is not a bad idea as well to help take out the depots). It will also make it harder for the Germans to bring up additional forces and commit reserves to battle. The German generals on the ground discovered very quickly that Allied airpower in Normandy was a game changer. This becomes very clear very quickly in the final Liberation Trilogy book The Guns at Last Light. The massive Allied airpower stationed in England in 1944 makes this intensive interdiction strategy possible.
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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by Belphegor »

Oop. Sorry. I have no issue with Pelton's response. He advanced to the beach but didn't/wasn't able to attack; likely built up divisions from regiments guarding beaches nearby as he can assume that this is my primary invasion. I didn't move him too far in the next turn but I did move him back and have begun building up on the invasion site.

My point was that a human was capable of reproducing what the AI did without having to cheat. And I offer it only as an example. Yes it is/no it isn't (broken) arguments are tiring. If players put more into playing and providing concrete examples and less into rhetoric we could truly find out if there were issues.

I can't do it thus it is broken isn't really proof (this is not aimed at anyone incl the OP)

edit: add to the information on the subject whether it supports your claim or not and let people decide with the weight of examples.
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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by Chris21wen »

In real life the Allies had taken out most of the bridges across the Loire and Seine, virtually isolating the landing sites from anything south or east of the rivers.  Even with the German ability to build bridges it still took units a long time to get to the area, over two weeks in many instances when the journey should have took three to five days.  Your landing took place east of the Seine and with no large rivers between there and the Pas-de-Calais.
 
I've not got anywhere near playing the Normandy invasions so I don't know if the Germans have any movement restrictions placed on them so they can't move and I can't remember when it was that the German generals finally persuaded Hitler that the landings were the real thing so ignoring these I believe it is possible for the Germans to get considerable numbers to the landing site within the first week despite the heavy Allied interdiction.
 
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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by mariandavid »

Well let's be honest: In the REAL world the reasons why the Germans did not have 6 panzer, 1 panzer Gren and 5 infantry divisions jumping on the Allies one week after they landed in Normandy were:

- Hitler was an idiot (I assume we do not want the AI to be an idiot)
- The British due to Enigma and XX were able to fool the Germans into placing their mass and reserve mass north of the Seine - which is, incidentally, the only reason why that Allied air interdiction was so effective.

Presumably an intelligent AI, knowing the game rules, would
- place infantry/forts along the dangerous beaches - those closest to its resources and VP's
- place motorized at maximum distance from a beach that could be reached against allied air interdiction.

Hence I suspect the German reactions we are getting.

Note in passing - throughout WW2 both the RAF and USAAF greatly (impossibly) exaggerated the actual effect of their interdiction efforts. Operation Stranglehold in Italy is the best example - a narrow peninsula, absolutely, utterly overwhelming air superiority and yet when the result was evaluated and the spectacular (and often pictured) bridges and trains blown up taken into account - the effect was actually minimal both in troop movement and supply transfer. I suspect that were it not for the Seine bridge blowing its value in the Normandy case would have been equally minor.
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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by Bamilus »

Thanks for the detailed reply, Joel. Love the game but currently biting into WITE right now until the teleportation and other AI issues get resolved.
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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by Duck Doc »

My understanding from reading is this "propensity for destruction" was typical. Given enough notice any usable facility or item was either blown apart or rigged as a booby-trap by withdrawing Germans. They were masters at the process. Ports were demolished when possible. Wouldn't you?

I don't want to derail this thread either but thought it important to point this out.
ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

What also may need to be looked at is the German propensity for destruction. In almost every port they left, it was so thoroughly wrecked as to be unusable for weeks/months.

Both issues sound serious. And I do not want to get this thread off topic.
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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by Balou »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

My understanding is that units moving toward the front line from the rear will follow the basic rules and be impacted by interdiction.


Any news ? Following your suggestions, and besides interdiction, ground attack etc, I flattened every rail line and every railyard in a 10-15 hex radius around the beachhead in Brittany for 8 weeks with no apparent impact on Axis movement capabilities. Playing without FOW to better see what's going on, it became clear that nearly the whole of France gets empty of Axis troops within my landing turn. Awesome ridiculous.

What's more, all these troops seem to dig faster than any Soviet unit I've seen in WitE. OK, in your view the AI may need some sort of teleporting, but do they need turbodigging as well ? Same thing in Italy: while bypassing a static front in southern Italy with a landing in Anzio, the whole Axis front removes and within 1 turn all Axis troops find themselves in a new frontline far north in level 1 forts (in previously unmanned positions). I better hire german expatriate engineers to tell the Allies how to handle shovels.

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I'll keep an eye out for those saves as I'd really like to see the situation on the German side after the invasion and see what the AI does vs what a human player could do.

We've taken several shortcuts with the AI movement. The AI cannot analyze the situation like a human player. Even if it could and tried to, it would make the AI phase take much longer than it already does. So Gary strives to build an AI that does not play by the exact rules that human players do, but also doesn't take advantage of it to the extent that it's obviously cheating and doing things a human player can't do. My understanding is that units moving toward the front line from the rear will follow the basic rules and be impacted by interdiction. I just confirmed that this is Gary's understanding as well. We're not sure about the units getting on and off trains and how much it pays for this so there might be some cheat there, but Gary says the AI will try to get off the trains outside of heavily interdicted areas and march in. Units on the front line or within a hex of the front can do what we call the shuffle dance and reposition along the front without being hit by interdiction. This shuffle is a late phase adjustment that tries to balance the forces along the lines. We found that this kind of shuffle is very important for the AI, and is just too difficult and time consuming to make the AI follow all the movement rules and suffer interdiction. Even with the shuffle, the AI isn't as smart as a human player and often leaves weak points. In addition, the AI suffers horrible command penalties in combat because it doesn't do as good a job keeping command integrity with its units as a human can. This also weakens it's chances at reserve commitments.

Gary has already worked on reducing the amount of teleporting of units from bad situations based on several saves we received that showed us how this could still happen. The bottom line is that in order to provide a decent opponent we have to do some cheating. But we work hard at trying to limit the cheating to moves that come close to the net results that a good player could do. When we get clear cases of the AI going too far, we try to fix the AI to avoid the obvious cheats. It's a balancing act, and getting saves from players helps us improve the game. Without a save, I can't say whether this case was a case of overt AI cheating or just a good reaction like Pelton's in Belphegor's screenshot. A lot depends on just how much interdiction you have placed down and how deep it is behind enemy lines. The D-Day campaign is a case where good deep interdiction can make it difficult for German units to get to the front on the first turn (and those that do get to the front do arrive somewhat shot up).

In Belphegor's case, all I can say is that Gary's answer would be to use heavy interdiction on the front and to the rear. This will make the front line Germans susceptible to attacks and allow the Allies to expand the beachhead. It will also make it very hard for the Germans to counterattack. It will also blow up freight moving to and from depots (hitting the nearby railyards is not a bad idea as well to help take out the depots). It will also make it harder for the Germans to bring up additional forces and commit reserves to battle. The German generals on the ground discovered very quickly that Allied airpower in Normandy was a game changer. This becomes very clear very quickly in the final Liberation Trilogy book The Guns at Last Light. The massive Allied airpower stationed in England in 1944 makes this intensive interdiction strategy possible.

The rail lines are not being hit very hard by WA's.

I always keep a reserve of 3-6 panzer divisions on trains, yes sitting on trains.

This way they can rail about any place on the map as long as they are in center France slightly to the south.

I also have a net work of depots so supplys are not an issue defending as long as I manage my trucks.

Historically WA's pounded Frances road and rail net work for 4+ months ( zero bombs on Germany), why players think they can bomb Romania, Germany, Italy and France thinking they can slow the Germanys response to invasions is Middle Earth.

The air engine is just about perfectly historically, so players have to simply do what was done historically.

Stop bombing everything and focus on the invasion.

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by Smirfy »

Totally incorrect it only took the Allies a month to smash the network. bomber Command was bombing Germany in force nightly until the 27/28 April it even managed the bomb Germany in force again three nights in May.

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by morganbj »

ORIGINAL: Pelton

The rail lines are not being hit very hard by WA's.

I always keep a reserve of 3-6 panzer divisions on trains, yes sitting on trains.

This way they can rail about any place on the map as long as they are in center France slightly to the south.

I also have a net work of depots so supplys are not an issue defending as long as I manage my trucks.

Historically WA's pounded Frances road and rail net work for 4+ months ( zero bombs on Germany), why players think they can bomb Romania, Germany, Italy and France thinking they can slow the Germanys response to invasions is Middle Earth.

The air engine is just about perfectly historically, so players have to simply do what was done historically.

Stop bombing everything and focus on the invasion.

In your attempt to defend the air and logistical systems of WITW, you inadvertently show their weaknesses.

First, I posit that if the Wehrmacht had 3 to 6 Panzer divisions loaded on trains somewhere in France on June 6th, there would not have been enough rolling stock to keep everything in supply. Furthermore, these would have been easy targets as they began to move. And, have you ever been involved in loading and unloading heavy equipment (tanks, assault guns, half tracks) off of rail cars? It takes more than a day to unload a division, even if one has a large unloading facility to do so. Those were bombed out of existence in the war. Can't do that in the game. No, in the game one can rail right up to the front and Bam! unload, even if there is no rail head and it's just in the middle of nowhere, and attack several times at full strength. Uh, huh. Sure, interdiction MAY have an impact, but I would argue that a few trains unloading several divisions that close would receive quite a bit of attention, if it were possible. No provision for that in the game, either.

Second, please tell me which 4 months the 8th Air Force did not bomb Germany. I have included a listing of their missions for your convenience. Sure, the emphasis was on supporting the invasion preparation, but strategic bombing never did cease. Oh, and please tell me how I can have he 15th Air Force help with an invasion in Northern France. Should I move all the planes to France to help? Did the WA have to do that in real life, or did they continue the strategic campaign?

Third, please tell me which bombing option breaks rail lines altogether. Interdiction/railway bombing only lasts the current turn, and bombing marshaling yards in cities is almost useless since they can be easily circumvented by taking alternate rail lines. If the WA could bomb a rail line and have it broken for a few turns, then I'd agree with your "bomb the railways" comment. I've not found the options available to be nearly as effective as you say.

The point is that the air system is not "perfect." It is flawed. Some of that is because converting reality into electronic bytes always comes with compromises, but, part of it is that there is a bit of "play balance" that has been considered. If there were no interior bombing, what would be the effect on victory points, for example? The air system is what it is because of other game mechanics, including the movement/combat system.

I agree that a more robust air campaign can help the WA, but the fact is that the Wehrmacht can just get too many assets too involved in combat in the first week. That's a fact.
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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by Smirfy »

20/21 357 Cologne,
22/23 596 Düsseldorf, 238 Brunswick,
24/25 637 Karlshrue 234 Munich
26/27 493 Essen 206 Schwienfurt
27/28 322 Friedrichshaven

Bomber Commands raid post its April 14th transfer to SHAEF
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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by Baelfiin »

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

ORIGINAL: Pelton

The rail lines are not being hit very hard by WA's.

I always keep a reserve of 3-6 panzer divisions on trains, yes sitting on trains.

This way they can rail about any place on the map as long as they are in center France slightly to the south.

I also have a net work of depots so supplys are not an issue defending as long as I manage my trucks.

Historically WA's pounded Frances road and rail net work for 4+ months ( zero bombs on Germany), why players think they can bomb Romania, Germany, Italy and France thinking they can slow the Germanys response to invasions is Middle Earth.

The air engine is just about perfectly historically, so players have to simply do what was done historically.

Stop bombing everything and focus on the invasion.

In your attempt to defend the air and logistical systems of WITW, you inadvertently show their weaknesses.

First, I posit that if the Wehrmacht had 3 to 6 Panzer divisions loaded on trains somewhere in France on June 6th, there would not have been enough rolling stock to keep everything in supply. Furthermore, these would have been easy targets as they began to move. And, have you ever been involved in loading and unloading heavy equipment (tanks, assault guns, half tracks) off of rail cars? It takes more than a day to unload a division, even if one has a large unloading facility to do so. Those were bombed out of existence in the war. Can't do that in the game. No, in the game one can rail right up to the front and Bam! unload, even if there is no rail head and it's just in the middle of nowhere, and attack several times at full strength. Uh, huh. Sure, interdiction MAY have an impact, but I would argue that a few trains unloading several divisions that close would receive quite a bit of attention, if it were possible. No provision for that in the game, either.

Second, please tell me which 4 months the 8th Air Force did not bomb Germany. I have included a listing of their missions for your convenience. Sure, the emphasis was on supporting the invasion preparation, but strategic bombing never did cease. Oh, and please tell me how I can have he 15th Air Force help with an invasion in Northern France. Should I move all the planes to France to help? Did the WA have to do that in real life, or did they continue the strategic campaign?

Third, please tell me which bombing option breaks rail lines altogether. Interdiction/railway bombing only lasts the current turn, and bombing marshaling yards in cities is almost useless since they can be easily circumvented by taking alternate rail lines. If the WA could bomb a rail line and have it broken for a few turns, then I'd agree with your "bomb the railways" comment. I've not found the options available to be nearly as effective as you say.

The point is that the air system is not "perfect." It is flawed. Some of that is because converting reality into electronic bytes always comes with compromises, but, part of it is that there is a bit of "play balance" that has been considered. If there were no interior bombing, what would be the effect on victory points, for example? The air system is what it is because of other game mechanics, including the movement/combat system.

I agree that a more robust air campaign can help the WA, but the fact is that the Wehrmacht can just get too many assets too involved in combat in the first week. That's a fact.
The allies have the tools to get the job done vs. the German rail system. In all of Pelton's AAR I don't see very much interdiction and not much rail bombing.
Maybe AWG can comment on the effects rail yard and railway bombing have had in our game, but it seems to me that it caused a lot of problems.
If you don't wreck the German rail net then deserve to get a horde.

BTW how many divisions rolled into Normandy from 6 June to 13 June?
The Germans are not gonna just fade away because the Allies show up. It took 6 plus weeks to get a breakthrough in Normandy. I don't see why there should be an expectation that the Germans can't put up a fight.
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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by RedLancer »

@ bjmorgan
 
I'm confused at your post as WitW does model both rail lines and rolling stock.  Railyards 'produce' the rolling stock so the more they are damaged the less can be loaded and the greater the congestion on the network (i.e. more SMPs to move the same distance).  The capability of a railyard effects the capacity of the co-located depot and this includes damage. As the freight movement is calculated last then less freight will be moved.  Finally unloading costs more the further you are from a railyard.
 
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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by Balou »

You probably talk about "rules" in HvH. But in a game against an Axis AI ? As Joel stated, the AI cheats and I'd like to know how far it goes.
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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by Baelfiin »

ORIGINAL: Balou

You probably talk about "rules" in HvH. But in a game against an Axis AI ? As Joel stated, the AI cheats and I'd like to know how far it goes.
I think you are misrepresenting what Joel said
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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by Erik Rutins »

Hi Mike,

Unless we missed it, we still don't have a save file for this. Could you upload one for us please?

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by marion61 »

This is rail way interdiction. On some hits I'm showing +80,000SMP added to a rail hex. Put enough bombers on a few rail choke points and it won't matter if units rail around Europe and they won't be getting too much supply either. In this screen shot his defense was daunting, but with a little prep work behind his lines, having 8th AF set to bomb a two hex area of just his troops (3 separate grnd attacks), I broke his lines that turn. I killed almost a divisions worth of men on ground attacks, but after your break them any more ground attacks should focus on starving him so he cannot regain lost fatigue, or supplies. 2000+bombers in a 20 miles area is a lot of bombs, and this isn't counting my tactical air this was just my heavy bombers.

Use the map, check out how much rail the lines saw. If your recon is good, they can be accurate, and if you see a crap ton of rail use on that line, shut it down for him. You bomb it in a small area and you can slow it to a trickle.

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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by Peltonx »

Again people simply are not using all the WA's tools in the tool kit.

Carlkeys bombing of the possible invasion areas will have an effect.

He also has 400+ VP's 100 are from my mistakes in garrison lvls turn 3.

In all my other games the VP count is -.

He also basicly completely wiped out the LW in just 20 turns.

As far as leaving 3-6 divisions loaded up on rail cars read up on how rail systems work,
generally speaking there are 3x as many box/flat cars in rail yards as there are moving.

There is nothing going on in France from May 43 - May 44, loading up heavey equipment and leaving for months is nothing special.

I have done PDM work for RR's so I know what I am talking about as far as rolling stock sitting in rail yards.

Sure they are easy targets IF you know they are there and IF you bombing rail yards.



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RE: Amazed at the german invasion response

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: meklore61

This is rail way interdiction. On some hits I'm showing +80,000SMP added to a rail hex. Put enough bombers on a few rail choke points and it won't matter if units rail around Europe and they won't be getting too much supply either. In this screen shot his defense was daunting, but with a little prep work behind his lines, having 8th AF set to bomb a two hex area of just his troops (3 separate grnd attacks), I broke his lines that turn. I killed almost a divisions worth of men on ground attacks, but after your break them any more ground attacks should focus on starving him so he cannot regain lost fatigue, or supplies. 2000+bombers in a 20 miles area is a lot of bombs, and this isn't counting my tactical air this was just my heavy bombers.

Use the map, check out how much rail the lines saw. If your recon is good, they can be accurate, and if you see a crap ton of rail use on that line, shut it down for him. You bomb it in a small area and you can slow it to a trickle.

Image

nice job.

As GHC its key to keep the front as short as possible. In this case the front is med size and requires allot of supplies ect.

If the front is only 6 hexes like my games the front line units require very few supplies. So you put all armies on 1 and the front line army on 4.

Again nice bombing and using all the tools in your tool kit.

What turn is it?

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