Thoughts on Fortifications

[Smirfy]

Yup just reading about a RA battery of 8 gun firing 21,000 shells from when it landed in Normandy to July 22th. I Remember reading Horrocks memoirs years back and his story of capturing Mount Pincon and I googled it to see if I could find on line. Basically anytime an attack was held up they brought down the fire of the AGRA, 300 guns in all and flattened the area.

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: GrumpyMel

Edit: And as to the lack of preparatory bombardments in WWII, I'll simply provide the following citation describing the bombardment proceeding the COBRA offensive....

"Cobra got underway at 09:38 on 25 July, when around 600 Allied fighter-bombers attacked strongpoints and enemy artillery along a 300 yd (270 m)-wide strip of ground located in the St. Lô area.[76] For the next hour, 1,800 heavy bombers of the U.S. Eighth Air Force saturated a 6,000 yd × 2,200 yd (5,500 m × 2,000 m) area on the Saint-Lô–Periers road, succeeded by a third and final wave of medium bombers.[77] Approximately 3,000 U.S. aircraft had carpet-bombed a narrow section of the front, with the Panzer-Lehr-Division taking the brunt of the attack...."

And if you go further in your Wikipedia quotation you'll discover that...

"By 11:00, the infantry began to move forward, advancing from crater to crater beyond what had been the German outpost line.[79] Although no serious opposition was forecast,[80] the remnants of Bayerlein′s Panzer Lehr—consisting of roughly 2,200 men and 45 armored vehicles[71]—had regrouped and were prepared to meet the advancing U.S. troops, and to the west of Panzer Lehr the German 5th Parachute Division had escaped the bombing almost intact.[80] Collins' VII Corps were quite disheartened to meet fierce enemy artillery fire,[81] which they expected to have been suppressed by the bombing.[81] Several U.S. units found themselves entangled in fights against strongpoints held by a handful of German tanks, supporting infantry and 88 mm (3.46 in) guns[81]—VII Corps gained only 2,200 yd (2,000 m) during the rest of the day.[80]"

[Smirfy]

The view from the other side of the hill is interesting

"It is immaterial whether such a bomb carpet catches good troops or bad they are more or less annihilated"

Von Kluge

Interestingly as well, in under one game turn Bradley had broken through and broken out.

[marion61]

If your having trouble getting high enough combat odd, this would be my suggestion. First prep your air and interdict his supplies and movement. This could take a few turns, but once your ready, even with just six divisions in a two hex attack, assign all the divisions (make sure the divisions have 3 su's each) to one corps with the best ground rating, make sure they have plenty of arty, and if they are in Italy, mtn arty and hvy arty are helpful in corps. You may not crack them the 1st week, and you may not crack them the 2nd week, but if you have set it up right, he'll have to keep rotating fresh units in from elsewhere, weakening that area. He can't have high CV everywhere, so mass for your attack in that area your going to hit and not the 200cv area.

[GrumpyMel]

ORIGINAL: SigUp

ORIGINAL: GrumpyMel

Edit: And as to the lack of preparatory bombardments in WWII, I'll simply provide the following citation describing the bombardment proceeding the COBRA offensive....

"Cobra got underway at 09:38 on 25 July, when around 600 Allied fighter-bombers attacked strongpoints and enemy artillery along a 300 yd (270 m)-wide strip of ground located in the St. Lô area.[76] For the next hour, 1,800 heavy bombers of the U.S. Eighth Air Force saturated a 6,000 yd × 2,200 yd (5,500 m × 2,000 m) area on the Saint-Lô–Periers road, succeeded by a third and final wave of medium bombers.[77] Approximately 3,000 U.S. aircraft had carpet-bombed a narrow section of the front, with the Panzer-Lehr-Division taking the brunt of the attack...."

And if you go further in your Wikipedia quotation you'll discover that...

"By 11:00, the infantry began to move forward, advancing from crater to crater beyond what had been the German outpost line.[79] Although no serious opposition was forecast,[80] the remnants of Bayerlein′s Panzer Lehr—consisting of roughly 2,200 men and 45 armored vehicles[71]—had regrouped and were prepared to meet the advancing U.S. troops, and to the west of Panzer Lehr the German 5th Parachute Division had escaped the bombing almost intact.[80] Collins' VII Corps were quite disheartened to meet fierce enemy artillery fire,[81] which they expected to have been suppressed by the bombing.[81] Several U.S. units found themselves entangled in fights against strongpoints held by a handful of German tanks, supporting infantry and 88 mm (3.46 in) guns[81]—VII Corps gained only 2,200 yd (2,000 m) during the rest of the day.[80]"

Reading is fundamental, look at the full statement from where you took the quote...

- "By 11:00, the infantry began to move forward, advancing from crater to crater beyond what had been the German outpost line"

The German fortifications were sufficiently nullified to allow the Allied infantry to pass the initial defenses without opposition.


"Several U.S. units found themselves entangled in fights against strongpoints held by a handful of German tanks, supporting infantry and 88 mm (3.46 in) guns[81]—VII Corps gained only 2,200 yd (2,000 m) during the rest of the day.[80]"

- There were some surviving troops and surviving strong-points. No one expects even concentrated artillery and air to destroy every last man, tank, gun and strongpoint. What it means is that it was significantly reduced not completely destroyed by the bombardment. To Lehr's immense credit it didn't break and rout where alot of other units might have. They doesn't translate to bombardment ineffective.

- Collins Corps gained 2,000 meters in 1 day. Not a break-through but in a game where each hex is around 10 miles and turns are 1 week long....that translates to pushing the defender out of the hex, even if subsequent attacks gained ground at no greater rate.

However, subsequently we have this...

"However, if the first day's results had been disappointing, General Collins found cause for encouragement; although the Germans were fiercely holding their positions, these did not seem to form a continuous line and were susceptible to being outflanked or bypassed."

and later

"By 28 July, the German defenses across the U.S. front had largely collapsed under the full weight of VII and VIII Corps' advance, and resistance was disorganised and patchy.[83] VIII Corps' 4th Armored Division—entering combat for the first time—captured Coutances but met stiff opposition east of the town,[83] and U.S. units penetrating into the depth of the German positions were variously counterattacked by elements of the 2nd SS Panzer, 17th SS Panzergrenadier, and 353rd Infantry Divisions, all seeking to escape entrapment.[84] A desperate counterattack was mounted against the 2nd Armored Division by German remnants, but this was a disaster and the Germans abandoned their vehicles and fled on foot.[84] An exhausted and demoralized Bayerlein reported that his Panzer Lehr Division was "finally annihilated", with its armor wiped out, its personnel either casualties or missing, and all headquarters records lost."

Reminder.... turn equals 1 week, scale equals 10 mile hex's. By the scale the game is operating under, the bombardment did it's job in neutralizing the effectiveness of the initial German defensive positions and allowing the Allied infantry to pass them and press the attack, followed up by armor. Even if they hadn't advanced at a greater rate then the until days, the attack was effective.

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Interestingly as well, in under one game turn Bradley had broken through and broken out.

Yeah, and for the previous seven game turns they barely managed to gain three game hexes or so.

ORIGINAL: GrumpyMel

...

And that Wikipedia article also said that the German defenses there were lacking in depth. Fact is, by then the German units were severely exhausted and lacked replacements all over the place. The units standing in Normandy at the end of July weren't the same units standing there in the first week of June. Panzer Lehr didn't get reduced from 15.000 to 2.000 men in a single bombardment.

And this kind of attrition is very well possible in WitW. Just switch sides and watch heavy interdiction supported battles attrite your units in a few turns. Fortification level 3 doesn't matter much in the long run if in every battle 95% of your elements are disrupted and per turn - even while winning all the defensive battles - the ready TOE elements decline by 10-20%.

[Smirfy]

I make it about 32-34 hexs in Game terms before Cobra, go ahead count them.

[SigUp]

You mean to say the Anglo-Americans managed 340 miles from D-Day to Cobra? I thought Cobra was breaking out of Normandy and not breaking the Westwall. [:D]

Jokes aside, I don't know why you are harking on Cobra. Fire up the Breakout and Pursuit scenario and see how simple it is to break the German lines. Just tested this out myself. Didn't really play seriously, just grabbed units as I saw fit and smacked every German unit in the American sector north of Avranches. Could have been a clean breakthrough probably if I actually planned the air phase and the ground combat. German reserve activation didn't even matter for the most part and the losses were hideous for them with 28.000 compared to the Allied 6.500.

[GrumpyMel]

ORIGINAL: meklore61

If your having trouble getting high enough combat odd, this would be my suggestion. First prep your air and interdict his supplies and movement. This could take a few turns, but once your ready, even with just six divisions in a two hex attack, assign all the divisions (make sure the divisions have 3 su's each) to one corps with the best ground rating, make sure they have plenty of arty, and if they are in Italy, mtn arty and hvy arty are helpful in corps. You may not crack them the 1st week, and you may not crack them the 2nd week, but if you have set it up right, he'll have to keep rotating fresh units in from elsewhere, weakening that area. He can't have high CV everywhere, so mass for your attack in that area your going to hit and not the 200cv area.

Meklore,

Here's what happens. If I weaken a hex in an attack (or multiple attacks per turn), the AI simply shifts the HG Panzer Division (and another strong unit, I think usualy a PzGr Division) into that location from whatever location it occupied elsewhere in the line. This happens no matter the weather, no matter the the ground conditions and no matter the terrain it has to move into over, and despite the fact that I am flying interdiction in that area. It gets there with perfect combat readiness and no fatigue for it's movement....I've seen it even shift into mountain terrain in this manner. It gets there, enjoys the full CV boost of the fortifications and because the Fort levels haven't been reduced by more then .5 in the assaults (or close enough) it completely rebuilds the Fortification level in that hex upto maximum. It makes that hex unassailable. Meanwhile my divisions are exhausted from the assaults and I'm unable to shift forces around without suffering fatigue and significant readiness loss like the A.I. does (even though it's not flying a single plane for interdiction. I'm basicaly trying to play whack-a-mole with the "weak spot" (if you can even call a 100 CV value "weak") against an A.I. that can out-shift me with no readiness loss and with Forts that can only be dented and are pretty much instantly rebuilt to full strength. This is ignoring the HUGE VP penalty they allies pay for making these sort of heavy attrition attacks.... and against an AI that is supposed to be on "Easy" (maybe "Normal" but definately not harder then that).

After about 20 turns of playing in that situation... the A.I. eventualy made a mistake in the placement of 1 of it's units occupying the line (that it really didn't have any reason to make)...and I got a break with something like "only" a 60 CV defense to attack. I cheated and after about 2 dozen replays of the same attack in the same turn, I finally got a result that defeated the hex (and most importantly allowed the enemy Fort level to be destroyed). I moved the best shape mobile units I had in there and set everything else to reserve and saved the game. The A.I. promptly moved the HG Panzer (and some other units) across the map and staged a deliberate attack.... I cheated again and after only about a dozen replays of the same turn I was able to get a defense that held. From there I have been able to slowly and with vast loss of VP's gain a hex or 2.

I did a landing in May in Brittany around the St. Malo area with all the TF's pulled from the Med. and the 2 US ones arrived from Europe and the 8 fully beefed up Divisions I could fit on them... along with 2 Divisions plus a couple regiments air dropped. In the A.I's turn I got to see an insane number of Panzer divisions appear (I saw someone do a similar post to the invasion response elsewhere) show up in full fighting trim and even do a deliberate attack that took 1 beach-head from the Canadians. 3 cheers for the 101st Airborne who held off a similar assault in front of the US beaches. This despite the fact that I have the entire 8th and 9th Airforces interdicting the area at high intensity, RAF Bomber Command doing the same on DAY missions (Night seems to not be too effective)... RAF 2nd Tac was reserved for Ground Support of the invading forces. Fighter Command is doing Air Superiority Missions over the Area and Coastal is on Naval Patrol there..... and barely an Axis plane is flying due to previous degradation of their airfields. This again on "EASY" or "NORMAL" setting.

Needless to say, I put the game on the shelf in frustration after this. Taking a break from it to play other things, maybe I'll come back once the frustration fades... maybe not.

One thing I do note is that my interdiction doesn't seem to be working as well as it seems like it should. I'm only getting 0's, 1's, 2's and maybe a couple 3's over the areas I'm trying to interdict....this despite basicaly having every plane in England that is capable of doing so fly this (or Ground Support)...; no matter what the size of the target boxes seem to be set and...and using HIGH intensity. I'm nowhere (over land) getting the 8's and 9's that others seem to be reporting. I am getting 8's and 9's over sea hex's when flying Naval Patrol.... but not by aircraft flying interdiction over land hex'..... maybe there is some sort of special, hidden "yes I really want to interdict" checkbox that everbody else knows about that I'm missing.

[SigUp]

If you are saying you can't get high interdiction values in the mountains of Italy, it's one thing. That you say you can't get it in France is strange. That's what I just managed with a couple of mouseclicks when I did that little Cobra test:

[GrumpyMel]

ORIGINAL: SigUp

If you are saying you can't get high interdiction values in the mountains of Italy, it's one thing. That you say you can't get it in France is strange. That's what I just managed with a couple of mouseclicks when I did that little Cobra test:

Yes, I'm saying I can't get those for France....using pretty much every plane that is availble in England in the '43 scenario doing a May '44 invasion.... I'm getting 1's and 2's and a few 3's nothing higher.

[marion61]

I just invaded on a server game, west of Avaranches. I'll take a screen shot for you. You won't get 8's and 9's by only having one AD over the target area. They require overlapping, making sure your using the right load outs, and if your interdicting you need RECON!!! If your recon values in a hex are low, you'll never see 8's and 9's over land, no matter how many planes you throw at it. Recon the areas your wanting to raise interdiction in, set the recon to take interdiction photos, then send in the bombs. It works brother, trust me [;)].

I see you got a screen shot already. I hope this all helps.

[Smirfy]

How about a couple of screenshots for the loadouts and settings for the recon and ground attack aircrft. That would be a great help

[Kumppi]

I'm still trying to get to grips with interdiction. Why does it make a difference if you put in one AD over the target area with 200 planes or 2 ADs with 100 planes each?

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


How about a couple of screenshots for the loadouts and settings for the recon and ground attack aircrft. That would be a great help

Can't tell you about any loadouts or settings for the aircraft. As I said, I just ran a quick demonstration, so I just used the default settings. Set GS to low, GA to the highest with only interdiction checked and let the AI run the directives. Then I just pulled the area definition of 8th Airforce, 9th Airforce and the RAF Tactical one together with a 2 hex range placed in the middle between the frontline and Avranches. Took me a minute to set it up.


Here's a screen showing the air directives. As can be seen, 8th, 9th Airforce and RAF Tactical have the same area definition - interdict the hell out of the German units in the American sector.


Recon level

[marion61]

This is a load out for your shorter ranged recon. Short range recon I use low level cameras. Always tack on extra fuel tanks if you can get it in the load out. More flights, mean better recon values. To get high interdiction values you need recon planes with low level cameras, set to target interdiction and railways (and whatever else you want to set). The more types of targets you set, the less time they can photograph each.

[marion61]

Camera Targets

[marion61]

Set Airgroups

[marion61]

And this is the recon air directive set for flying 6 days (gotta rest the pilots). You have enough recon planes to do two recon missions. Normally I set the other planes with high level cameras and do strategic recon. The bombing of the Reich doesn't stop just because of a little battle.

[GrumpyMel]

So here is what I'm getting. This is from the results of the Air Execution Phase for the turn of the invasion (invasion took place in Axis logistics phase) with the interdiction levels and AD's turned on.