Thoughts on Fortifications

[GrumpyMel]

Here is just 1 of the ADS for 8th Air Forces of several....including ones that overlap. 1300 bombers but I'm getting mostly 0's here..

[marion61]

This is my server game invasion. This is before my air phase even starts.

[GrumpyMel]

Here's another for 8th, I split these up because of the inability to do a box that is rectangular rather then square... another 900 Bombers into the mix..

[Baelfiin]

Whats your bombload?

[GrumpyMel]

Yeah.... I'm obviously not getting anywhere near what you are getting for interdiction values and I'm not sure why.

[GrumpyMel]

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

Whats your bombload?

I left it to the default of what the game has it set.....I was assuming that the game sets reasonably effective bombloads for it's defaults that only need tweaking if you truly wamnt to optimize results. Is that wrong?

The only thing I changed was switched a couple P47 groups that I've assigned to 9th air force from Fighter to Bomber roles since I've really degraded my opponents interceptor capability and I have plenty of escorts, so I figured they'd be more useful in the bomber role for the time being. I noticed with the default load the game gave them when I switched, their range wasn't all that great...so I switched them from using 1,000 lb to 500 lb bombs with a drop tank. That's the only load-out changes of any kind I remember making to my air groups.

[Baelfiin]

try using the 500 pounders and see if you get better results. I have never gotten stellar results with b17/b24, I like to use them in bomb city mode vs rail yard. Fighter bombers at low alt seems to work pretty well. Also try to get some recon with interdict priority and see if that helps.

[marion61]

Rockets are the load outs I use if they are available, but you have a lot of fighter's, switch some of them over to bombers, and small bombs and gas tanks. The ai does a reasonable job of things, vs the ai. Learning the air war is vital to a successful game. You have so much stuff it looks easy, but it's not.

[SigUp]

The key to interdiction are fighter bombers and not the heavies. What the Germans feared weren't B-17 or B-24 bombing them while they were moving, but the so-called "Jabos". Like the P47 or the Typhoon.

[Radagy]

In your opinion what are the best planes to disrupt a single stack of enemy units before a groud attack on a crucial hex?

[SigUp]

Interdiction with fighter bombers. But if it's really critical, throw everything you have into that area, including the heavies.

[paullus99]

I can't see Heavy Bombers being very effective at Interdiction...especially since they attack point targets & aren't fast enough to deal with convoys and such (and they aren't on station to deal with targets of opportunity).

[Smirfy]

I followed the advice about recon and checked through all the settings in each target box taking ground support to low and interdiction to high converted 9 squadrons to Typhoon put most of USAF fighters as bombers condensed the size of my boxes and targeted an area of clear terrain in Italy , I am starting to get better numbers. The weather is not good so i can't quantify the results but I will play through and see what effects it has.

Now I must admit things would just be a hell of a lot easier if there was just an INTERDICTION box that automatically fixed your settings. That's one of the reasons why I like the idea of "wings" and "Group HQ's" because you can just have an "interdiction" Group and forget about it.

[Joel Billings]

As noted by others, the heavy bombers are not what generate high interdiction values. It's the fighter bombers that can really increase the numbers. Heavy bombers are best at bombing fixed targets like railyards and factories.

[carlkay58]

And fighter bombers have shorter ranges than most other aircraft so they have to be based as close to the action as possible.

[GrumpyMel]

Alright, so now I'm getting a bit confused.... shouldn't you be using your FB's in a Ground Support role to support the actual attacks that are calling in close air support? That's what I'm mostly using them for...or are you talking about splitting them and using them for both?

What I did was put....

- The entire RAF 2nd Tac AirForce on Ground Support for direct support of the invading troops. Those have most of the Typhoons and British Tac Bombers in them.

- The US 9th Air Force which has alot of the Marauders, Havocs and US Tactical Bombers on Ground Strike Missions to interdict and hit units immediately behind the beaches, I also set a couple of small missions to bomb the nearby Luftwaffe airbases that still had planes in them, as I didn't want to risk these getting up in the air to mess with the transports carrying para's. I converted a couple of it's P47 groups from fighters flying escort to bombers with 500 lbs...but not all, clearly I could have done more of that.

- I set the entire 8th Air Force to fly deeper interdiction to get units moving up into the sector. I didn't touch their bomb loads or convert any of their escorts though.

- I set the entire RAF Bomber Command to day missions also flying deep interdiction behind the invasion area. They were set to do rail interdiction as well as regular. I didn't touch thier bombloads though.

- I set every recon plane in England to fly recon over the general area. I didn't touch any target priorties for them....I didn't actualy know recon missions had target priorties.

- I set all of RAF Coastal Command to fly Naval Patrol over the sea area where the invasion fleets would be moving through.

Intuitively this seemed like a reasonable plan to me, obviously the results were pretty anemic. What I didn't touch was bombloads (aside from the couple mentioned for range purposes)....I assumed that planes would default to a reasonable loadout for their type and frankly with my limited knowledge of bomb types, I figured I'd do more harm then good by messing with them. Same with altitudes, I assumed that AD's would default to a reasonable altitude for the mission and didn't really need too much micro-management to achieve decent results.

I realize that the heavies aren't as optimal for interdiction as the smaller craft... but I didn't figure they'd be that bad...and AFAIC the invasion is sort of a broken arrow situation for the air forces...if the game let me, I'd have ordered Cessna's up with boxes of hand grenades to toss out the window.

Clearly, I did a less then stellar job in ordering my air missions over the invasion... but I don't think it was that crazy off base to enjoy minimal results....and I certainly didn't expect I would need to do everything optimaly to do a reasonable job in slowing the A.I's response on difficulty settings of "Normal" and below.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: GrumpyMel

Clearly, I did a less then stellar job in ordering my air missions over the invasion... but I don't think it was that crazy off base to enjoy minimal results....and I certainly didn't expect I would need to do everything optimaly to do a reasonable job in slowing the A.I's response on difficulty settings of "Normal" and below.

here's my 2 euros worth. I've used the May 44 campaign to test out a number of options. For what its worth, the worst use of the allied airforce in WiTW is direct ground support, ground attacks based around interdiction and rail give you far better returns.

Second observation, I did one where I turned the air over to AI completely and another where I worked with the AD screen and set areas of operation but not much else. My first attempt at manual control was much worse than trusting the AI, my second attempt at manual control I had much better interdiction levels and axis combat units often just collapsed on contact.

So my advice would be if you aren't sure about what you are doing, trust the AI.

[SigUp]

I would flip your approach around. Use P-47s, Typhoons, Spitfires etc. on interdiction while sending a few Marauders and the A-20s to ground support. Generally the most powerful weapon in the Allied arsenal is interdiction. When you have some 8-9 interdiction, then you don't need much ground support to smash the Germans. Thinking about it, this is also a more logical approach. Fighter bombers don't carry enough payload to plow through fortified defensive positions. On the other hand level bomber can't get low enough to spot and pinpoint hit the traffic going around. Fighter bombers going low have a much higher visibilty in regard to ground movement and can hit much more accurately, either dropping bombs from a lower altitude, or simply strafing the entire area.

[GrumpyMel]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: GrumpyMel

Clearly, I did a less then stellar job in ordering my air missions over the invasion... but I don't think it was that crazy off base to enjoy minimal results....and I certainly didn't expect I would need to do everything optimaly to do a reasonable job in slowing the A.I's response on difficulty settings of "Normal" and below.

here's my 2 euros worth. I've used the May 44 campaign to test out a number of options. For what its worth, the worst use of the allied airforce in WiTW is direct ground support, ground attacks based around interdiction and rail give you far better returns.

Second observation, I did one where I turned the air over to AI completely and another where I worked with the AD screen and set areas of operation but not much else. My first attempt at manual control was much worse than trusting the AI, my second attempt at manual control I had much better interdiction levels and axis combat units often just collapsed on contact.

So my advice would be if you aren't sure about what you are doing, trust the AI.

That sounds like direct ground support is pretty much useless, if ground Attack Unit is better at it's core mission then it is. A little counter-intuitive to me, but ok if that's the way the game makes it. Thanks for the advice.

I had assumed that Ground Support would be better at effecting units that your ground forces were in actual contact with and engaging since you would have spotters on the ground calling in direct air support missions against targets where they were encountering heavy resistance rather then relying on luck, spotting from the air and photo recon to hit targets not in contact.

I had been using Ground Attack - Unit alot to see if I could soften up units (and fortifications but it seems not to work for that at all) prior to deciding whether I wanted to assault them since there doesn't seem to be a way to do a "If you are meeting heavy resistance call off the attack" setting for ground attacks.... so the computer can't differentiate between when a player wants to do a "take at all costs" meat-grinder frontal assault and a "probe for weakness and exploit if you can" attack.
I had also been using them to hit and weaken units behind the line or in parts of the line I didn't intend to attack that turn but might try in future. Didn't seem all that effective in Italy but the terrain is horrible there.

Thanks for the advice!

[GrumpyMel]

ORIGINAL: SigUp

I would flip your approach around. Use P-47s, Typhoons, Spitfires etc. on interdiction while sending a few Marauders and the A-20s to ground support. Generally the most powerful weapon in the Allied arsenal is interdiction. When you have some 8-9 interdiction, then you don't need much ground support to smash the Germans. Thinking about it, this is also a more logical approach. Fighter bombers don't carry enough payload to plow through fortified defensive positions. On the other hand level bomber can't get low enough to spot and pinpoint hit the traffic going around. Fighter bombers going low have a much higher visibilty in regard to ground movement and can hit much more accurately, either dropping bombs from a lower altitude, or simply strafing the entire area.

I was kind of thinking that the FB's and Strike Craft like the A-26's and A-20's would be better off in Ground Support role where they could be called in by spotters and ground troops to hit points of resistance that were in close contact with friendly ground troops where their greater agility and smaller payloads would help hitting the exact targets without also hitting friendly who might be in close engagement. Where the bigger bombers had better utility in knocking out bridges, cratering roadways and knocking out rail lines.

I'd always assumed interdiction meant not just hitting convoys of troops on the move to the front (though certainly that was a major function) but also destroying the infrastructure which facilitated easy and quick transport along those lines of supply and communication. The game engine doesn't seem to have a "bomb bridges" mission...so I had assumed that was included as part of "interdiction" in the game.

Probably I'm wrong, since you seem to have much better results then I, I'll try your suggestion.... thanks!

Edit: Also just learned about a custom difficulty setting where I can set the Build Fort speed down as low as 25 percent of normal, so doing that may help resolve some of my gripes about Fortifications.... I'll have to try that out at some point.