Lets talk about conspiracies - Pearl Harbor

[bigred]

ORIGINAL: Bo Rearguard

ORIGINAL: DeZanic

AND what if these carriers would have been spotted in time, would the US intervene? Would there be any war declaration anyway. What was the Japanese plan B in case the task force got discovered? I mean certainly the US would have increased the presence of patrols around Pearl Harbor to prevent the Japanese trying to come close again if this first attempt would have failed. So what would have happened if the carriers got discovered?

Lets discuss.

It's important to note several things about Pearl Harbor: the Japanese did not fully expect the attack to be a surprise. They anticipated the possibility of facing an alerted enemy. They figured to lose two carriers. In that regard, they were surprised themselves. There's always been speculation that had the US battleship fleet received adequate warning that getting underway and out into deep water might have resulted in a greater loss of life had the Japanese found them. The shallow depth of Pearl Harbor ensured many ships would fight again.

Equally importantly is that most of the conspiracy theories about Pearl Harbor display a lot of ex post facto knowledge. The idea, for example, that FDR would sacrifice what were later seen as outdated warships (second-generation battleships and older destroyers). At the time, carrier operations were entirely new, and very few nations had mastered them. Not even the Japanese conceded the seas to carriers...the plan for Midway six months later called for the coup de grace to be delivered not by Nagumo's carriers, but by Yamamoto's powerful battleship division, led by the Yamato. If a war was going to be fought, the planners of 1941 expected it to be fought by those second-generation battleships lined up at Pearl Harbor, with the carriers in a supporting role.

There's also the point that tethering the battleships at Hawaii without torpedo nets was not as stupid as it sounded. The torpedoes the Japanese used in the attack were new and highly secret. The potency of Japanese torpedoes came as a shock to the US throughout the first months of the war.

And if Pearl Harbor is the subject of so many conspiracy theories, then the Battle of Savo Island, on August 8/9, 1942, should be even more controversial. Four Allied cruisers sunk, 1,000 bluejackets drowned, with no damage inflicted on the Japanese in return. That was nine months into the war, and the US Navy still was operating with a complacent mindset nine months after "The Day of Infamy." You see the same comedy of errors, missed intelligence and luck as at Pearl Harbor, but you never hear conspiracy theories on how the Japanese got the drop on the USN in the midst of an important counteroffensive.

The bottom line to me on Pearl Harbor is that the Americans underestimated the Japanese in 1941 as diminutive yellow men in buck teeth and spectacles who bowed a lot and made cheap imitation goods. In the racial environment of the 1940s the idea of an Asian people striking the USN in a safe port thousands of miles from the expected area of conflict was inconceivable. It took many months for that mindset to dissipate, which is why a lot of the conspiracy theories which popped up right after the attack inferred German planning or even outright participation in the attack.

I do feel that General Short and Admiral Kimmel got a harsher deal from Washington than they deserved. MacArthur lost all of his planes in the Philippines the following day, and became a hero. Short and Kimmel were not colorful characters or brilliant leaders, but they were unfairly treated when compared with MacArthur and Brereton. Their talents -- and Kimmel's were pretty considerable -- should not have been left to waste. As Prange wrote, "There was enough blame to go around at Pearl Harbor."

Well said.

[bigred]

edit,,,double post.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: DeZanic
What put this this theory into my head was after reason George C. Marshalls diary pages published on the net by the archives. Remarkable is a comment in October 1941 where its said something like if the US are to go to war against Japan it would be better to let the Japanese make the first move.

The only thing I deduce from that diary entry is that he - quite reasonably - concluded that it is generally better not to look like the aggressor in a conflict.

What conspiracy theories usually suffer from is that they so easily get cut to pieces by ockham's razor.

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The author of the original post might be surprised at the fervor with which his propopsed topic was dismissed. He might wonder why. He might wonder if those of us who disagreed with him are close-minded. That isn't the case. Let me explain.

The dismissal isn't because the subject isn't of interest. It's because the subject has been considered and studied exhaustively. There is no credible evidence that Roosevelt "wanted" the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor so that we could join the war effort. There is abundant, overwhelming evidence ("beyond a reasonable doubt") that he did not. Many of us have been through this excercise before (including multiple times in the WitP forums over the years) and are persauded that the issue has been settled after thorough and careful examination by many credible historians.

Occasionally people pop up and want to re-open the issue. Usually, they preface by taking this position: "I've seen some arguments that Roosevelt knew" and I'd like to discuss it. When the response is "already discussed and settled," the reaction is often: "Well, you must be close minded. Please prove to me that he wasn't involved in a conspiracy." This kind of approach to history drives historians and reasonable people nuts.

In the study of controversial, "outlying" views of history, the approach isn't to assume that the outlier is true and to demand that others prove it isn't. The reasonable approach is that it's up to you - the proponent of the outlier - to prove that evidence supports the absurd, the unlikely, the "outlying."

What if you offered this for discussion: "Abraham Lincoln was a female." Hopefully you wouldn't accept that as true and expect others to prove that he was a male. You'd understand that you carried the burden of proof since you were offering an unlikely, bizarre proposition.

If you were an unreasonable sort, you'd take offense when others replied: "Come on. He was a male. There's no evidence that he was a female." You'd reply: "You're not open minded. You've fallen for the party line and failed to fairly and thoroughly sift through history. In all the existing letters we have - hundreds and hundreds - not a single person wrote that they absolutely KNEW that Lincoln was a male. There's not a single document in which an eyewitness viewed his anatomy and said he was a male. His kindly nature and eloquent words suggest he was uncommonly sensitive. Mathematicus DaVinci Organelle, a professor of Sexual History at the Providence School of Proctology said, in 1911, that Lincoln exhibited many tendencies of a female. In total, there's reason to believe Lincoln might have been a female."

The rest of us would pull out our hair in frustration or peremptorily dismiss your thoughts from consideration at this point.

Matters of history are often up for discussion, interpretation and study. But certain things are beyond dispute because they are so well established. To dispute settled matters and, in so doing, to actually besmirth the reputations of historical people, can be pretty darn offensive.

Well said, Dan!

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Symon

Sorry to Canoerebel for responding to his post. It was just the last one in the thread.

Canoerebel is an historian and editor/publisher of an historical magazine. As such, he is bound by factual matters, of historical significance. That is his paradigm.

Mine is different. Fat, smelly, pimply faced, 12 year-olds, that can’t get a date no matter how much money they offer, just ain’t in it, so they have to play the tin foil hat card and make pronunciamento about conspiracies, in order to validate their pathetic existence.

This is a forum dealing with the Pacific War. Take your fat, smelly, conspiracy crap, shove it up your brown spot, and go away. JWE

Also well said, John! [:D]

[msieving1]

ORIGINAL: General Patton

From what I have read and heard over the years, IF the US knew the japanese were of of PH, there wasn't much they could do. If they sortied the BB's to attack the KB, with of without the 2 CV's in the area, they would of taken large losses in men and machines. Much higher than just letting them get bombed in PH. There's a lot more to it. This is from a special I saw on Discover or military channel a few years back. My $.02....GP

First suggestion: don't pay much attention to programs on Discovery or the Military Channel.

If the US knew an attack was coming, there's plenty that could have been done. If the Japanese attack had been met with all US fighters in the air, all bombers dispersed to outlying islands, and all anti-aircraft guns (ship and land based) manned and ready with plenty of ammunition available, then US losses would have been much less and Japanese losses of planes and aircrews would have been heavy.

[Schanilec]

Are mommy and daddy fighting?[:D]

[crsutton]

I had a college roommate in the 1970's that was convinced the Russians had a satellite flying overhead that controlled the weather.

Let's discuss....

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I had a college roommate in the 1970's that was convinced the Russians had a satellite flying overhead that controlled the weather.

Let's discuss....

warspite1

For ^&*! sake crsutton, Russian weather controlling satellites have been debated on this forum to death. BTW what was the weather like when you were in college?

[:D][;)]

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I had a college roommate in the 1970's that was convinced the Russians had a satellite flying overhead that controlled the weather.

Let's discuss....

Not just in the 70s... That's the scary part...

[Trugrit]

What?

You don’t watch cable TV? [:D]

I believe a well respected scholar who has appeared many times on the History Channel; has also analyzed the Pearl Harbor conspiracy and his opinion is considered by many Americans, who have been educated under our current system and can’t find Pearl Harbor on a map or even locate the Pacific Ocean, to be the final word on this subject.

Here is his in-depth analysis:
(Note: This is also his analysis on weather control)

[Numdydar]

So we can blame Russia for all the climate change [&:]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I had a college roommate in the 1970's that was convinced the Russians had a satellite flying overhead that controlled the weather.

Let's discuss....

warspite1

For ^&*! sake crsutton, Russian weather controlling satellites have been debated on this forum to death. BTW what was the weather like when you were in college?

[:D][;)]

Don't really know. I was smoking a lot of weed at the time and have no recall of ever going out doors....[;)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I had a college roommate in the 1970's that was convinced the Russians had a satellite flying overhead that controlled the weather.

Let's discuss....

warspite1

For ^&*! sake crsutton, Russian weather controlling satellites have been debated on this forum to death. BTW what was the weather like when you were in college?

[:D][;)]

Don't really know. I was smoking a lot of weed at the time and have no recall of ever going out doors....[;)]

warspite1

Okay - and does that state of affairs have anything to do with a certain Chinese Prostitute?* [:-]




* Goodness - having typed that I hope my memory isn't playing tricks and that was you [X(]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I had a college roommate in the 1970's that was convinced the Russians had a satellite flying overhead that controlled the weather.

Let's discuss....

warspite1

For ^&*! sake crsutton, Russian weather controlling satellites have been debated on this forum to death. BTW what was the weather like when you were in college?

[:D][;)]

Don't really know. I was smoking a lot of weed at the time and have no recall of ever going out doors....[;)]

I KNEW it! The Birkenstocks never lie! [:-]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: warspite1

warspite1

For ^&*! sake crsutton, Russian weather controlling satellites have been debated on this forum to death. BTW what was the weather like when you were in college?

[:D][;)]

Don't really know. I was smoking a lot of weed at the time and have no recall of ever going out doors....[;)]

warspite1

Okay - and does that state of affairs have anything to do with a certain Chinese Prostitute?* [:-]




* Goodness - having typed that I hope my memory isn't playing tricks and that was you [X(]

I don't follow this post, Warspite1. [&:]

Are you hoping that crsutton was, in fact, a Chinese prostitute?

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I had a college roommate in the 1970's that was convinced the Russians had a satellite flying overhead that controlled the weather.

Let's discuss....

warspite1

Don't really know. I was smoking a lot of weed at the time and have no recall of ever going out doors....[;)]

So, unseasonably cloudy. Perpetually. Sounds ominous...

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: USS America
Also well said, John! [:D]

Hi Mike. Thanks. Down in Chile for the summer. Did Feutelefeu and actually got on Tormentos. Woof. I am seriously drained. It's 68F (20C) and sunny. A bit crisp, but who'se counting. We are digging hard into Finns. Think Chile will have some righteous folks come next Olympics.

Ciao. JWE

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: crsutton




Don't really know. I was smoking a lot of weed at the time and have no recall of ever going out doors....[;)]

warspite1

Okay - and does that state of affairs have anything to do with a certain Chinese Prostitute?* [:-]




* Goodness - having typed that I hope my memory isn't playing tricks and that was you [X(]

I don't follow this post, Warspite1. [&:]

Are you hoping that crsutton was, in fact, a Chinese prostitute?

warspite1

I hope I have got the right forumite, but I am pretty certain one of crsutton's post once began something like:

I was talking to a Chinese Prostitute or something similar - thought folks wouldn't forget a post like that in a hurry - rats, now I'm worried I have the wrong person...

Anyway - you need to get along to the Australian Beauties thread CB - we have a quiz going and you may be able to answer one or two [:)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: warspite1

warspite1

Don't really know. I was smoking a lot of weed at the time and have no recall of ever going out doors....[;)]

So, unseasonably cloudy. Perpetually. Sounds ominous...

warspite1

What is it about this forum? Why do people keep quoting me with things I have not said?