Der Newbie: Turn 8 I leik pockets

[jwolf]

ORIGINAL: caliJP

One more specific to T1: I tend to only blast the front line at specific spots where I want to pierce with Panzers. I tend to depopulate the line to the bare minimum in other areas and use the moved units to do the initial blasting (use of technique described above). You only need to keep enough to keep the pocket sealed, which is easy on T1 since the soviet units are very weak. This means often that most or all units seating right on the frontline where I want to pierce have the soviet frontline cleared (either routed or at least out of forts) before they have spent a single MP. They can then way more easily exploit the breach. You don't want to route too many units on T1, better to pocket them. Only exception is I blast all the FZs I can so that the soviet doesn't get a chance to disband them and recycle the elements into other units.

This paragraph is good advice and I would recommend to any beginner to practice this technique (or something similar) with AGC in the Road to Moscow scenario. Standard doctrine is to blast a hole 3 hexes wide so that you can exploit through the hole without encountering enemy ZOCs until deep behind the lines. BTW the FZs, if isolated, can't be disbanded, can they? Or rather, what I really mean, if so the elements would not go into the pool, would they? Otherwise a player could do this for any trapped unit which I presume is not possible. Nevertheless, I agree that it's a good idea to take out all the border FZs on turn 1; it's easy to do, simplifies movement, and gets rid of several enemy forts.

[Huw Jones]

I also like to blast small holes, near the airbases on the front line, then after bombing the airbase move a unit up to it, so that it displaces, destroying the damaged aircraft, which can add several hundred dead aircraft to the T1 tally.

If you do it later on in the turn, any units that rout, will mostly rout into the pockets you have created.

[Timotheus]

Some basic newbie advice I will give out here.

When you are attacking, make sure that the Corps HQ is IN RANGE. Corps HQ does not only give out supply at the end of the turn during logistic phase, it also gives out SUPPORT UNITS which help out with the attack. If you have a typical corps, say, three infantry divs, and only want to attack with one, move the HQ to get in range of the attacking one, even if the other ones get out of HQ range.

At the end of the turn ideally you want all units to be in range of their HQ.


The blast a 3 hex wide "highway" is basic advice so that your fast movers - exploitation units, motorized, panzer - do not have to pay a penalty to move through enemy ZOCs. Also good advice.



Now, on with the show.


Turn 2

AGN

Not much action - the emphasis is on speed. Cleared out the Venta-Albava rivers area (left side battles), in which the Soviet infantry divisions and NKVD internal security troops surrendered.

Also cleared out the port of Riga.

The LVI Panzer Corps units (codename "Manly Pink") are already near Pskov, which is an area where the real historical Soviet units AND AI Soviet likes to make a stand.

But there isn't much there...

There is nothing in Estonia (Talinn area) either...

Which begs the question - where is the Soviet army in the north?

The plan for AGN is on speed not on encirclements - Der Newbie Fuhrer would like to get to Leningrad and cut it off totally from the mainland, which includes taking not just the railline into the city but also ports on the east side of Leningrad from which (in game and in history) the Soviets run their supply ships to keep the city (somewhat) supplied.

DNF (Der Newbie Fuhrer aka yours truly) has run air recce but there is NOTHING preventing the run to Leningrad, really no enemy units. Either they are hiding in the forests, my pilots are drunk and/or they are (what's left of them) in Leningrad, which does have some buildup (did not show it in screen capture - trust me on this).

All things look good for DFN in the north, full speed ahead to Lenin's city!

Note: I did say that I do not care for geographical or any other objectives but only wish to pocket as many Soviet units as I can?

I lied.

I can do that, you know, I am DNF (the real house painter did this also, if you read your history books).

NOW I want to destroy the Red Army AND take Leningrad in 1941 to free up the Finns and show the world (and that Georgian failed priest) that DNF means business!

[Timotheus]

AGC

The border battles are won. West of river Neman, a mass of Soviet divisions were engaged and utterly destroyed.

They were hanging on a vine, as my panzer troops have run far ahead and their supply and command and control were cut. They were basically cut from their main forces, they could do nothing except wait to be destroyed, which of course is the main aim of Barbarossa.

Duly obliged.

NW of Wilno (Vilnius), the infantry of my 253rd division attacked and to their surprise noticed that they are attacking the 5th tank and 84th mechanized alongside the 23rd rifle divisions.

They have dug in to let the enemy wither on the vine - they are as good as dead, no point in losing German infantry storming dug in tanks with lots of infantry support.

The battles, one after the other "string", you see going from Minsk all the way to halfway to Smolensk, was the enemy heroic 24th Rifle under general Vladimir Borisov. It was bumped into and engaged by my 12th Panzer. Then it was bumped into then engaged by my 7th Panzer of XXXIX Panzer Corps, then bumped again and again and again and again by the 7th Pz... they did NOT break and rout until the sixth battle! These were all hasty attacks...

The aim of DNF was to clear the Minsk-Smolensk rollbahn (main route of advance/supply) but Borisov's division's heroic performance put a wrench in the plans.

To compare, 128 Rifle under Vasily Morozov was hit and routed in one battle (the easternmost battle).

The mass of landsers (foot sloggers) are following my fast movers but the ones who cleared the mass of enemy units on the border are going nowhere, and the ones who were free to move are moving as a blob SW of Minsk.

It will be a while until they catch up... the rate of advance between the panzer/motorized and normal infantry is worrying.

The "MO" you see east of Minsk is MOGILEV, a Soviet city. Directly north of it is Vitebsk and north of THAT is Velikie Luki ("Big Holes", ahh, Russians have a penchant for cool names for their towns).


Velikie Luki is basically where AGN and AGC have their operational boundary in my mind...


East of Vitebsk is Smolensk, a big town, which I guess for prestige reasons Stallin' will want to defend... so if they make a stand, lets hope for a big pocket.

One hex east of Mogilev (remember, the "MO" you see where a Soviet airfield is) the scary, BIG river Dnepr... which my fast movers MUST get to and get some river crossings, because if the Soviets retreat to it and are given time to fortify...

Lets just say that crossing a MAJOR river like that which is defended is a VERY DIFFICULT operation.

The string of battles you see on the bottom was the 16th NKVD Detachment commanded by Pavlov (who in real history was shot by Stalin, who wanted a scapegoat to blame). Good performance by the elite Soviet troops, as they were bumped into, hasty attacked again and again and...

The river which XXIV Panzer dudes (codename "the Blues") have bounced and got across is the Berezina, which is a major river BEFORE the mighty Dnepr (remember, east of Mogilev)...

At this point DNF is crappin' his pantaloons, as not only a Soviet infantry division can resist pressure from a panzer division again and again and again, but a small NKVD detachment can and did the same!

No to mention major rivers (Berezina what... we didn't plan for that... I vaguely, barely considered the Dnepr in the planning!) and look at the godawful light woods which slow the troops a bit also.

Rivers, rivers everywhere...

So the problem is this:
Do we, the mighty Wehrmacht dudes, move as fast as we can to bounce the major rivers, such as the Dnepr, Berezina and whatever else this horrible tank country throws at us, or do we make pockets?

DNF has thought a bit on that and decided... to do BOTH!

Fuhrer prerogative to change his mind (keep in mind this is turn 2 and already rethinking the goals of the operation).

[Timotheus]

AGS

The situation in AGS is excellent, at least DNF thinks so (but what does that nooblet know, eh?).

The Lvov pocket has trapped a ****load of Soviet units, the Lvov pocket was constricted and will be ready for reducing and good ole Soviet units annihilation next turn!

Should not take longer than a turn, then all these ground pounders will be ready to march as fast as they can east.

Sounds like a plan!

16th and 11th Panzer divisions (codename: "The Mighty Reds!") have split up (advanced play by yours truly [:D]) and have trapped some SCARY Soviet units, the 4=14 7th Motorized, 9=28 12th tank (!!!), 212th motorized and 37 tank (9=12 !!).

These... these backward peasants... can make some good tanks...

All this junk was supposed to roll into Romania and take out Ploesti oilfields, fortunately we have prevented that from happening. Without oil... well, it would not be a thousand year reich, more of a 10 year one... or less...

Stallin's best troops are here.

Unfortunately, the price to pay is that AGS fast movers have not moved that fast at all...

And the enemy has bounced off and set up shop on the Zhitomir - Vinnitsa line where I think they are getting ready to make a stand.

So we need to reduce the Lvov pocket and the "east of Lvov scary Soviet units" pocket and then once done so, we might be too late to prevent the Stavka from making a good defensive line at the aforementioned defensive line.

North of Lvov some more odds and ends were pocketed, fortunately this close to the border we can use infantry and free out fast movers to make MORE pockets (like the manly red dudes) farther east.

[Timotheus]

Turn 2 losses

We have taken out 4000 tanks...

To keep this number in perspective, the mighty Wehrmacht has started this shindig with... 3000 plus change tanks... We have already taken out more Soviet tanks than we have in all German units in the Ostfront...

428,000 plus change Soviet guys taken out - killed, captured, wounded... That's almost half a million and we have just started the fun!

One thing about AGS - do you see big scary rivers here?

Nope.

Should be fun but only if Stallin' does not run... we shall see.

[Timotheus]

Turn 2 Railroad - the unappreciated heroes

DNF has no comments on the ineptness of the OKH guidance of his RR troops.

[Timotheus]

Turn 2 Strategery Thoughts

The aim is still to pocket as much **** as we can and get those Soviet men into POW camps pronto!

But an extra objective is to get Leningrad in 1941.

Another extra objective is to STOP enemy from consolidating and digging on the major river lines, such as the Berezina and Dnepr. Because when that happens, the happy race toward where the sun rises will turn into... WW1. DNF wants to vroom vroom east and bounce and unhinge any major river lines WHILE AT THE SAME TIME pocket as many enemy divisions as he can.

These are somewhat.... mutually exclusive aims. [8|]

Fortunately, in AGN we have already bounced the big and scary Daugava river (running south from Riga) and in AGC the Berezina (which is the major river BEFORE the major river Dnepr a few hexes east of it, whew).

So we should be OK, if, IF, we bounce the Dnepr immediately with our fast movers.

Other than that, there are no major rivers to worry about.

Re: airfields - I just keep them ALL together, 3 per hex, and move the airfield blob all together for ease of play.

Note on the Pripyat marshes - I am just sending in the 1st Cavalry division (yes, Virginia, Germans had cavalry divisions in WW2, in fact they are super useful in the East with its godawful terrain... like the biblical size swamps in the Pripyat marshes).

The cavalry guys will go in and see what's hiding there - I don't want enemy units to burst out of there and cut my railroads later in the game! Extra mosquito repelland have been given to these guys, they should be ok...


Note that there is NO CONTINUOUS FRONT... and that I DON'T CARE.

I am racing east and pocketing as much as I can.

There are HUGE gaps between AGN and AGC and, again, I couldn't care less.

Onward - forvarts ost, brave electronic Wehrmacht dudes!



Wait a minute...

They still have 6200 working tanks? While we took out 4000 already?

Stallin'... has built a lot of ****.

I will have to talk to the Abwehr dudes and ask to define the word "unprepared", as in "unprepared for modern war" which was the report given to me by Canaris.

Also, the reports about their "super tanks"... were confirmed.

We already took out 105 KV1's, 26 KV2's, and 225 of their T34's tanks... which are scaring our men, to be honest.

Our anti tank guns are ineffective on them, our tank guns are also useless.

We can just try to hit their tracks to immobilize them, and if we get lucky, then bring in an 88mm or have a VERY brave landser put an explosive charge on it...

Unprepared for modern war? Backward peasants?

Then how come their tanks are so much better than ours!

[Timotheus]

Turn 2 The Haul

Since the main goal is to take out as many Soviets as we can, preferably by isolating (pocketing) and then destroying, here is the haul so far.

Pretty good stuff, if I do say so myself.

Note that the Axis units "destroyed" are just some useless AAA units I disbanded in high command HQ.

As a player, I don't think I will ever build a fortified unit. Just useless waste of guns and men.

[jwolf]

Some thoughts, not necessarily in any logical order:

From north to south, your first 3 FBD routes are OK -- may or may not be the best, but at least reasonable. But WTF are you doing with the one near Brest Litovsk? Your 5th FBD, the one that starts with 11th army (I usually transfer it to AGS) won't get going until turn 3. It looks like you plan to cover the whole southern rail net with just that one FBD? You'll find the south is much more wide open, with more ground to cover than the center and much more than the north. You'll also notice very quickly that the rail lines in the south, particularly near the Black Sea Coast, don't go anywhere near directly east as you would wish. All that is to say that rail repair is a more arduous task in the south, and you should have 2 FBDs operating there.

For the Pripyat marshes, I generally prefer to use security divisions to sweep through there. They are slow, but you don't need them on the front lines whereas that cavalry division can really help right at the lines. I like to move the cav division along with the GD from 2nd Panzer to 6th army and that helps to give a little more mobility to that force. One of your early reinforcements is a motorized division and I like to send that, along with Rumania's panzer division, to 11th army. That way you have a modest threat from mobile units at the north and south edges of AGS, while 1st Panzer can roam and take advantage of pocketing opportunities as they come -- all the while driving east like a madman, of course.

The Russians get a ton of reinforcements in turns 3 and 4. You'll see their new front lines and think all the first turn pockets were for nothing. That's just life on the eastern front.

For a major river crossing, yes that is a real pain as it should be. IMHO you need either infantry support or a massed force of armor to do the job, but infantry is better if possible. It is very difficult to move armor across a contested major river. Further, if you only move a little bit and they are knocked back across the river by the Russians, your retreat losses are terrible. That is probably not a serious risk against the AI but against a human player you definitely need to be careful about that.

Next turn you will start moving the rest of AGS and allied troops. It's very slow going at first: the mountains are a serious obstacle to the Hungarians; and the Rumanians are just S L O W due to their poor morale.

Good luck!

[loki100]

couple of comments about the north

That NKVD unit in Riga can be a real pain - depends on the player but put on refit it can generate around 30 defensive CV by T2. Something to bear in mind, I know a lot of players ignore it and others make bouncing the Soviets out of Riga a priority, but there is a cost to leaving it alone

I'd have put down at least a line of zocs on the Velikaya, but a lot of those reinforcements that jwolf mentions turn up at Leningrad so it'll be the Luga where you meet them. In the main its hard to defend Estonia, a bit like Riga some players build up in Talinin (which can be annoying to clear) but I think the Soviets need as much as they can immediately defending Leningrad

In the centre watch out for the hit on your MPs for T3, its hard to avoid this as its tempting to really push the Pzrs on T1/2, but you can end up with 12-15 MPs and that won't get you over a contested Dniepr. Its managing this transition of MPs over the first 4 turns so you get as much as possible on average that I think marks out the really good German players.

The scary bit of SW Front is not the stuff on the border. In the corps that are assigned to the Front (ie not in the armies) you'll find some very good rifle divisions, over 50 morale, in forts or poor terrain they'll take some shifting, try to manouver them back to Kiev rather than fight them if you can. A good study of the historical campaign on this sector will give you a good workable operational plan.

As jwolf, supply not Soviet resistance is one of the biggest constraints in the Ukraine, so watch your rail repairs or you'll find yourself unable to land a powerful blow.

[BJP III]

ORIGINAL: loki100

couple of comments about the north

That NKVD unit in Riga can be a real pain - depends on the player but put on refit it can generate around 30 defensive CV by T2. Something to bear in mind, I know a lot of players ignore it and others make bouncing the Soviets out of Riga a priority, but there is a cost to leaving it alone

I'd have put down at least a line of zocs on the Velikaya, but a lot of those reinforcements that jwolf mentions turn up at Leningrad so it'll be the Luga where you meet them. In the main its hard to defend Estonia, a bit like Riga some players build up in Talinin (which can be annoying to clear) but I think the Soviets need as much as they can immediately defending Leningrad

In the centre watch out for the hit on your MPs for T3, its hard to avoid this as its tempting to really push the Pzrs on T1/2, but you can end up with 12-15 MPs and that won't get you over a contested Dniepr. Its managing this transition of MPs over the first 4 turns so you get as much as possible on average that I think marks out the really good German players.

The scary bit of SW Front is not the stuff on the border. In the corps that are assigned to the Front (ie not in the armies) you'll find some very good rifle divisions, over 50 morale, in forts or poor terrain they'll take some shifting, try to manouver them back to Kiev rather than fight them if you can. A good study of the historical campaign on this sector will give you a good workable operational plan.

As jwolf, supply not Soviet resistance is one of the biggest constraints in the Ukraine, so watch your rail repairs or you'll find yourself unable to land a powerful blow.

I agree with all this except the point about the risk of not taking Riga. All you need to do is move a Security Division (or even a regiment) adjacent to it, and the NKVD division isn't going anywhere. You will eventually capture Kurresare, and isolate Riga completely, so you can take it at our leisure.

It is possible that the Russians will sea-lift a cavalry division or two in to use as raiders, but that should be easily dealt with. As a German, I would welcome the diversion of units from the defense of leningrad.

[Timotheus]

Turn 3

Overview

Middle of the action turn - there is a huge pocket in the Lvov area, which is slowing down AGS' march to the east.

AGN is motoring to Leningrad, and AGC is going as fast as it can to pocket as many Soviet units as it can.

AGN

There is nothing between AGN units and Leningrad. Nothing.

However, the terrain is slowing the panzers down more than the enemy. We are already at Pskov.

The infantry has caught up to our fast movers, which is good news.

One unit - the 36th motorized - was detached from the main force and sent to capture Talinn.

[Timotheus]

AGC

The Red air force has tried to slow down our troops by repeated bombings of our columns. Their bomber planes take heavy losses.

Our fast movers bump into a defensive line on the Vitebsk-Mogilev line, which is protecting Smolensk.

Smolensk is the "land bridge", the traditional way to invade Russia from the West.

The Stavka WILL make a stand here.

The panzers, having scouted the enemy, are waiting for the foot sloggers to catch up.

[Timotheus]

AGS

Our allies, the Romanians, have decided to join our crusade against Bolshevism.

In the north east, our troops are in the process of liquidating the trapped enemy units in the Lvov area.

It is slow going, and combat is not easy despite the fact that the enemy are cut off from their supplies and their HQ command and control.

They are resisting desperately.

Some more tank divisions are trapped by Leibstandarte "Das Newbie Fuhrer" and the 14 Panzer division.

The bulk of our forces are busy making and reducing pockets - very few fast movers are able to drive east to scout Proskurov and Zhitomir.

In the south, our allies, the Romanians are jockeying into position to be better able to attack Soviet troops protecting the Soviet-Romanian border.

Our German troops aim is, apart from pocketing and destroying as much of the Soviet war making potential as they can, to drive to Kiev.

The Romanians want Odessa, and we will make their dreams come true.

[Timotheus]

Turn 3 Strategery

Not much has happened. Where we have enemy units trapped, we are reducing the pockets.

Where we don't, we are driving towards the geographical objectives, for better or worse.

For such prestige objectives such as Leningrad, Kiev, Smolensk - Stavka MUST make a stand and try to defend, which should play right into our hands.

The Pripyat Marshes are totally ignored.

We are very happy to have so many Romanian (and a few Slovakian and Hungarian) units join us.

The OKH is keeping a tab on enemy losses. This data screen is becoming an obsession with our High Command, as THIS is the aim of Barbarossa. Everything else is secondary to destroying the Red Army before it can retreat and do what they did in 1812.

So far we have "taken out of the game" 648K Soviet troops, 5174 AFV and 1852 SP & AC.

We have lost 39K troops and 322 AFV and 56 SP & AC.



So far so good.

Of note is the fact that there is no frontline whatsoever, and AGN and AGC have no contact with each other other than by radio or a courier liaison airplane.

On the other hand there is nothing that can threaten our troops, nor does it seem the Stavka wants to do so. They are pulling away as fast as they can.

We shall see if they want to make a stand in Kiev, Smolensk, or before Leningrad west of Lake Ilmen, as there is nothing at Pskov.

[gingerbread]

Did you remember to convert (59,51) to Axis rail gauge?

[BJP III]

I think it is a mistake to send a quality Motorized division up to Talinn. The problem is that you are way past the railhead up there and will have a hard time getting any fuel. So it can take a long time to get him back into the fray, and you need him for the drive on L-Grad.

My theory is that a straight path from Pskov to Lake Ladoga as fast as possible is the way to go. Once that corridor is established you can begin withdrawing the Panzers for the Moscow offensive, filling in with infantry for the final push across the Neva. Once you capture Osinovets, it is game over for anyone to the west of your lines.

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: BJP III

I think it is a mistake to send a quality Motorized division up to Talinn. The problem is that you are way past the railhead up there and will have a hard time getting any fuel. So it can take a long time to get him back into the fray, and you need him for the drive on L-Grad.

My theory is that a straight path from Pskov to Lake Ladoga as fast as possible is the way to go. Once that corridor is established you can begin withdrawing the Panzers for the Moscow offensive, filling in with infantry for the final push across the Neva. Once you capture Osinovets, it is game over for anyone to the west of your lines.

Yes, don't know how it is with the new rules, but under the old ones it was entirely possible to HQ buildup the two mobile corps on Turn 4 and use them with infantry support to smash over the Luga on Turn 5 (unless you are playing a guy similar to Sapper who puts up a brick wall up north). Key to getting to Shlisselburg early is a concentration of forces. Sending a motorised division up to Tallinn will do no good, similarly is sending up an entire panzer corps a waste. The choke point at Narva also easy to defend. Simply send the weakest of 18th Army's infantry corps to clear the area. Concentrate the rest of 18th Army and 2/3 of 16th Army along with the entire 4th Panzer Group towards Luga and smash through.

[swkuh]

Analysis above of this AAR appreciated.

My 2 cents is that Riga-Pskov-Luga is the right path to L'grad, sometimes called "the right hook." Think, then, that Riga is essential for supply path, but other objectives not essential. PzArm IV is the right tool until worst terrain is found. Keep the Landsers marching, one bunch to Luga, other bunch to L'grad proper. FBD follows PzArm IV.