Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - The air war in China- DBB, SLs, PDU OFF

[GreyJoy]

5 april 1943

The allies conquer with paradrops Koggala, Jaffna (both on Ceylon) and North Male... i had forgotten a Jake squadron on North Male which is wiped out[:@].
Damned me!

For the rest the evacuation of Assam proceeds smoothly, while the allies conquer Patna.

N1K1s sweep empty skies over Milne Bay...

The evacuation fleet reaches Rangoon and Sebang, while more fighter are rebased at Rangoon, Port Blair and Mandalay.

In China we are advncing on the road towards Tsuyun. I think the way to Paoshan should be way easier now... the chinese MUST be very low on supplies now

I've converted a Lily Sentai to KI-45c, and started to use them in China for strafing....doing pretty well

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Dauntless42

Wars may not be won by evacuations, but as evacuations go, this was one of the best ever!

Thanks! And welcome aboard!

[MrKane]

My congratulations Nicola. Nice operation.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Hats off to you [&o]

I didn't think it was possible

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Hats off to you [&o]

I didn't think it was possible

Quite possible. Only way the Allies can stop an operation such as this is with it's fleet. But too risky because GJ controls the only decent port with a repair yard around. Crippled Allied ships have nowhere to go. Obvert probably was wise not to wade into this one. The Japanese fleet is still in superior at this stage of the war. Until that changes evacuation while risky are not difficult to pull off. Excellent timing by Nic. A well thought out gambit coordinated with the collapse of the China Theater. A little more delay and it would be much harder to do.

I personally think that a hard Allied drive through Patna towards Calcutta and Chittagong would have made more sense. The terrain and roads favor Allied tank forces and KB could not be a factor until the Allies neared the coast. The end result would have been the same, with an evacuation of Madras and abandonment of Celyon. It is the growth of Allied sea power that ends the India campaign. No matter the success on land.

Watching this AAR and my own current campaign has solidified my thoughts on the India gambit. Which I think are safe to post at this point.

1. It should be all or nothing. Bring everything or don't do it. You should bring every mobile unit you can spare.
2. Sooner the better. If you are going for India, then Singapore has to be knocked out as fast as possible and you should be in India by 4/1/42.
3. Unless you are going for AV, you have to have an exit strategy.
4. Capturing resources does not matter. The gain does not make up for the expense. So there are only two real objectives. Auto victory or to smash as much of the Commonwealth forces as you can while taking China out of the war. Otherwise don't do it.
5. You must deny Columbo to the Allies (capture Celyon) while operating in India.
6. It is a pretty good idea to take Perth to deny quick movement of forces between OZ and India. If not that, an investment in naval forces to interdict the route.
7. The biggest drawback to a move into India is that you will need KB for great blocks of time. A good Allied player should take advantage of this by using his carriers to grab forward territory in the Pacific. (Is is a mistake for the Allies to send carriers to India?) So, if you fight in India, you had better have a good idea of what your priorities are in the Pacific.

Lets discuss..[;)]

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Based on my own PBEM campaign, I have comments on point 1) and 4) otherwise I agree 100%

I think a strong, but limited offensive focused and limited to the Calcutta area can also work. Key for a limited offensive in Calcutta is that it will still help isolate and destroy China without over extending too much.

For point 4) unless the Allied opponent is uber aggressive or inexperienced, destroying CW forces is going to be very hard to achieve; simply too many rail lines. In my game I had the bulk of the Indian army at Bangladesh and it was very easy to strat-move them out as soon as the Japanese touch Diamond Harbor. An offensive focused on Burma/ Bangladesh in the other hand would had achieved more destruction as I was planning to defend there.

[pontiouspilot]

I agree with your conclusions with the comment that it all makes much more sense if a major Chinese operation is planned. It looks like the one, perhaps unintended, benefit of the Indian adventure was to completely strangle Allied operations in China.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: koniu

He'll be equipping his CVs first...but then, from July 43, i really need to worry about his DS... By that time i need my CVs to be equipped with A6M5c (for escort duties) and A6M8 for CAP.

Explain why M5c for escort and M8 for CAP.
Personally I will use them vice-versa.

In KB CAP speed is not so important as firepower. M5c defending KB will probably have dive bonus all the time so he if fly with 70-80+XP pilots will be good enough to deal with F6F, and his firepower will be deadly to enemy planes. Remember one shot one kill.

On other hand M8 is perfect escort fighter. Only 23mph slower from F6F so he have chance to use his maneuverability in fight. In escort You dont need to kill You need to stay alive long enough to keep enemy fighters from You bombers as long as passable

In summary in CAP You need to kill as fast as passable so firepower go first. In escort You need to have defensive skills so speed and maneuverability.

I see what u mean and i agree on 100% on what u said.
However, A6M8 can go on 8 hexes withdrop tanks on EXTENDED range, while A6M5c, using DTs, stays on normal range going at 8 hexes.
That's pretty decisive imho. extended range is always a bad thing for coordination, op losses and survivability in general.
The A6M5c has only 1 more heavy CL MG more than the A6M8...not that much, even if i see your points and i agree on them: firepower on CAP means a lot.

I agree - the most important difference between the 2 is the range difference. It depends on where you're fighting... Personally, I don't place much stock in being able to get an 8-hex strike off reliably, and therefore being out of range of Allied CVs. There's too much guesswork, and only a few places on the map where movement is constrained in such a way that you can go for that 8-hexes with any measure of confidence.

Still, the A6M8 only goes to 5 hexes on extended range without DTs, and only 4 on normal range. So you'll need to use drop tanks for your strikes in either case, and doesn't that carry potential fatigue/ops penalties also, similar to flying at extended range without DTs? Although I have noticed that the range-related penalties for pilots isn't so bad on 1 day of action... 2, it depends. And how many CV battles are you going to have that go to a Day 3, or even a Day 2?

[MrKane]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: koniu



Explain why M5c for escort and M8 for CAP.
Personally I will use them vice-versa.

In KB CAP speed is not so important as firepower. M5c defending KB will probably have dive bonus all the time so he if fly with 70-80+XP pilots will be good enough to deal with F6F, and his firepower will be deadly to enemy planes. Remember one shot one kill.

On other hand M8 is perfect escort fighter. Only 23mph slower from F6F so he have chance to use his maneuverability in fight. In escort You dont need to kill You need to stay alive long enough to keep enemy fighters from You bombers as long as passable

In summary in CAP You need to kill as fast as passable so firepower go first. In escort You need to have defensive skills so speed and maneuverability.

I see what u mean and i agree on 100% on what u said.
However, A6M8 can go on 8 hexes withdrop tanks on EXTENDED range, while A6M5c, using DTs, stays on normal range going at 8 hexes.
That's pretty decisive imho. extended range is always a bad thing for coordination, op losses and survivability in general.
The A6M5c has only 1 more heavy CL MG more than the A6M8...not that much, even if i see your points and i agree on them: firepower on CAP means a lot.

I agree - the most important difference between the 2 is the range difference. It depends on where you're fighting... Personally, I don't place much stock in being able to get an 8-hex strike off reliably, and therefore being out of range of Allied CVs. There's too much guesswork, and only a few places on the map where movement is constrained in such a way that you can go for that 8-hexes with any measure of confidence.

Still, the A6M8 only goes to 5 hexes on extended range without DTs, and only 4 on normal range. So you'll need to use drop tanks for your strikes in either case, and doesn't that carry potential fatigue/ops penalties also, similar to flying at extended range without DTs? Although I have noticed that the range-related penalties for pilots isn't so bad on 1 day of action... 2, it depends. And how many CV battles are you going to have that go to a Day 3, or even a Day 2?

There is one more problem with A6M8, in my opinion important too. A6M8 is using Ha-33 engine not Ha-35.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: MrKane

There is one more problem with A6M8, in my opinion important too. A6M8 is using Ha-33 engine not Ha-35.

I don't have a problem with that because you're going to need a lot of Ha-33's for other stuff anyway.

[MrKane]

you're going to need a lot of Ha-33's for other stuff anyway.

That exactly my point of view.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: MrKane

you're going to need a lot of Ha-33's for other stuff anyway.

That exactly my point of view.

What I mean is that I'd have both. It's not that big of a deal to convert half of your A6M production to the 8 and leave the rest at the 5c - maybe a couple of engines per day, and you build out the squadrons that need them, and a pool for them, and then turn it back off.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: MrKane

you're going to need a lot of Ha-33's for other stuff anyway.

That exactly my point of view.

I think what tom means is that on escort your fighters will die like flies, while on CAP survivability is much higher. So is better to expend planes that use Ha35 for escort and planes with Ha33 on CAP. Ha 33 is a much more needed engine in mid-late game terms

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: MrKane

you're going to need a lot of Ha-33's for other stuff anyway.

That exactly my point of view.

What I mean is that I'd have both. It's not that big of a deal to convert half of your A6M production to the 8 and leave the rest at the 5c - maybe a couple of engines per day, and you build out the squadrons that need them, and a pool for them, and then turn it back off.

In fact, with PDU OFF, i need to keep on producing till the end of the war the A6M5, the A6M5c and the A6M8.
Not a choice.
I'll go for 100 A6M5, 130 A6M5c and 180 A6M8 for the moment.

[GreyJoy]

april 6-8, 1943

The retreat from Assam is almost over. Troops are redeployed from Dimapur to Imphal and Ledo, while another army is marching to Akyab on the costal road.

In China we're clearing the way towards Tsuyun, while another army (the 23rd) clears the enemy stack NE of Chikkiang.

George sweep Deboyne Islands and kill 10 Wildcats for no loss[:D]
Morning Air attack on Deboyne Islands , at 103,135

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 28,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 44

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 17

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 5 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
39 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 25000 feet *

CAP engaged:
VMF-441 with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 9 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes


The allies keep on bombing Trico and Colombo...an invasion is imminent.

All our Army from Madras and Trico is now safe at Rangoon and Sebang and already redeploying in Burma and Sumatra.

Perth is finally conquered by the Australian tanks.

Allied cruisers bomb Mili and Nauru.
I smell a final invasion at Nauru and a coming one at Miri... Nauru has really been a succesfull operation! More than 4 years of siege after the first assault my the Marines... couldn't have asked for more. Now it's time to let those brave guys die and prepare to fight somewhere else.

Planning a general reinforcement of Kavieng and nearby Islands.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Hats off to you [&o]

I didn't think it was possible

Quite possible. Only way the Allies can stop an operation such as this is with it's fleet. But too risky because GJ controls the only decent port with a repair yard around. Crippled Allied ships have nowhere to go. Obvert probably was wise not to wade into this one. The Japanese fleet is still in superior at this stage of the war. Until that changes evacuation while risky are not difficult to pull off. Excellent timing by Nic. A well thought out gambit coordinated with the collapse of the China Theater. A little more delay and it would be much harder to do.

I personally think that a hard Allied drive through Patna towards Calcutta and Chittagong would have made more sense. The terrain and roads favor Allied tank forces and KB could not be a factor until the Allies neared the coast. The end result would have been the same, with an evacuation of Madras and abandonment of Celyon. It is the growth of Allied sea power that ends the India campaign. No matter the success on land.

Watching this AAR and my own current campaign has solidified my thoughts on the India gambit. Which I think are safe to post at this point.

1. It should be all or nothing. Bring everything or don't do it. You should bring every mobile unit you can spare.
2. Sooner the better. If you are going for India, then Singapore has to be knocked out as fast as possible and you should be in India by 4/1/42.
3. Unless you are going for AV, you have to have an exit strategy.
4. Capturing resources does not matter. The gain does not make up for the expense. So there are only two real objectives. Auto victory or to smash as much of the Commonwealth forces as you can while taking China out of the war. Otherwise don't do it.
5. You must deny Columbo to the Allies (capture Celyon) while operating in India.
6. It is a pretty good idea to take Perth to deny quick movement of forces between OZ and India. If not that, an investment in naval forces to interdict the route.
7. The biggest drawback to a move into India is that you will need KB for great blocks of time. A good Allied player should take advantage of this by using his carriers to grab forward territory in the Pacific. (Is is a mistake for the Allies to send carriers to India?) So, if you fight in India, you had better have a good idea of what your priorities are in the Pacific.

Lets discuss..[;)]

agree. Probably with PDU ON you can made Ceylon a real fortress, thus letting you dominate the Bay of Bengal througout the whole 1943. With PDU OFF it just isn't possible. Can't fight the mighty power of the allied numbers with Oscars and Zeros when Corsairs and P-38s arrive.

anyway, a limited offensive in Assam is also possible, combined with Ceylon. The Patna-Ranchi-Calcutta line is a strong one and not so easy to penetrate... but clearly there are risks and i don't know if i'd take them again in another match. Against QBall i limited my advance till Burma and the overall final result was pretty much the same.
Don't know how much i spent in this indian campaign...surely too much for my liking

[GreyJoy]

Haven't i told u how much do i love the George?!?! This wonderfull Sentai has accumulated more than 50 kills for 2 losses in less than 1 month of operations....[X(][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o]

[GreyJoy]

Can't wait to have the first (and only!) J2M sentai in september...
I now also really start to feel the need of some night fighters...unfortunately i'll have to wait for them and rely on my AA for a very long time...


However, now that i have abbandoned Madras i feel much more relieved... was a pain to be so exposed there and at Ceylon and my air units really needed a break.

Now the plan is the following for CBI:

Advance as fast as possible towards Paoshan-Tsuyun line.
Once the connection with Burma is estabilished i'll start the slow retreat from Dimampur-Imphal line towards Kalemyo-Katha Mitikyna and getting back to Burma. Hopefully, by the time the allies have estabilished a strong presence in Assam (building up all their bases), i'll be safely back to Burma, with a sttrong air presence backing me up

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Haven't i told u how much do i love the George?!?! This wonderfull Sentai has accumulated more than 50 kills for 2 losses in less than 1 month of operations....[X(][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o]

Yeah, looks like it is a much faster plane in Da Babes. On paper it might have been this fast but in actually operations I doubt it. Same with the Jack which seems God like now. With PDU off I can see about a million of these getting produced. In real life just a mediocre aircraft.

[Sangeli]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Advance as fast as possible towards Paoshan-Tsuyun line.
Once the connection with Burma is estabilished i'll start the slow retreat from Dimampur-Imphal line towards Kalemyo-Katha Mitikyna and getting back to Burma. Hopefully, by the time the allies have estabilished a strong presence in Assam (building up all their bases), i'll be safely back to Burma, with a sttrong air presence backing me up

With the successful evacuation of Madras I think that it is pretty much guaranteed you will clear out China before the Allies can reach Burma. That being said, I would attack from Burma into China with those newly arrived units. With a strong advance from both directions I don't think there is really any hope of the Chinese stopping you.