AGE Engine?

[Anthropoid]

I'm investigating game engines and which language I should focus on to build my dream game.

I'm inclined to go Java, since Marcus Persson is a fargging billionaire and Minecraft has planets that are more ginormous than any other game I know of.

But then everyone says "Java sucks for game development."

Far too many choices. Need another brew . . . So I figure I'll look around at what "game engines" have been used to build "one man show" games.

Banished was pointed out to me . . . custom-built C++ engine . . .

Distant Worlds was seemingly built using AGE Engine? What the heck is this thing? My Googling leads me nowhere. Even the Wikipedia is cryptic and sparse.

Can someone please point me at a good link for this? Is it free? What language is it based in? Is it really as good as the couple Youtubes I've found suggest?

[wings7]

How about the CryEngine from Crytek?
http://www.crytek.com/

Patrick

[Kuokkanen]

Do you have any previous experience about the subject, like playtesting and modding? Have you checked this and what can be done with it? Have you looked around for games under development and offered your assistance just to earn some EXP about game development? In this forum alone people have told about games they're making. What kind of game do you want to make anyway?

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Distant Worlds was seemingly built using AGE Engine? What the heck is this thing? My Googling leads me nowhere. Even the Wikipedia is cryptic and sparse.

I can tell you AGE is also the engine in Alea Jacta Est series.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

... Distant Worlds was seemingly built using AGE Engine? What the heck is this thing? My Googling leads me nowhere. Even the Wikipedia is cryptic and sparse.

It's the Athena AI by AGE(OD), or the Adaptive Game Engine (online distribution) .

[Anthropoid]

ORIGINAL: wings7

How about the CryEngine from Crytek?
http://www.crytek.com/

Patrick

Ah, thanks Patrick. I will have to explore that. Also thanks to wings7 to the Matrix games engine! Also something I will take a look into.

ADDIT: having had a look at those two engines (briefly) I think neither one is really suitable for my purposes. Cry seems to be an FPS high-graphics load engine, which I cannot see being practicable for a game intending to represent such massive amounts of geography.

The Matrix Engine I may actually download and play with, but I suspect its specific focus on a wargaming scale would not allow much for the 4x scale I have in mind.

@Matti,

No I don't have any experience at all. I'd enjoy the opportunity to help out on some projects that are not too far from my own interests.

My vision is still in the higher levels of abstraction phase, but basically it goes like this:

Turn-based isometric (possibly zoomabable/twistable, but no aspirations even to attain Civ5 level of graphical glitz) singleplayer historical 4x strategy game with possible provisions for coop and pbem, but no expectations of networked or multiplayer modes (and it is here I realize that Java's strengths offer little advantage to my envisioned game). Not having decided on a game engine / language yet, let alone started learning those tools, I'm still in the very beginning phase (which I've been stewing in for about 10 years, but it is finally time to get it moving forward). So, my vision for design is certainly incomplete. Related to this I recognize that it behooves me to be flexible and even opportunistic to "get my foot in the door" of game design. My first actual work, as you point out, might well be best spent helping some other group with their stuff, else getting a simple prototype that only reflects a portion of what I dream to eventually implement. As such, I'm trying to think in terms of a long-term developmental process, in which the initial game may simply introduce the game mechanics, themes and basic set of "rules," but cover only a small portion of the total envisioned subject area.

The Civilization series are certainly the most influential, but my main complaints with those games (and they have not got any better over the years) which I'd like to address:

1. Maps and scaling of entities, places, movement, etc. are ridiculous. The superordinate requirement for my envisioned game is that the engine must be able to support and run a game world of stupendous size and detail. Writing such game worlds, or developing algorithms to randomly generate them may take years, but the first step is to design an engine (pick an engine?) that can do it, and design a base game that can play it. If you try to translate say, the largest size Civ 5 planet you can generate, it would probably work out to be about the size of one U.S. state.

Basically, I want to design a Civ like game in which scaling (temporal and spatial) are as realistic as possible given the constraints of technology. Moreover, I would like the world(s) in which that game unfolds to be as detail rich as possible given the constraints of technology.

25 miles (~40km) across game cells is the number I arrived at as a "bare minimum" some years ago. If I come to the realization that the hardware and software will allow it, I'd happily plan on a scale that was double that size (12.5mile or 20km across game cells). Anything more fine-grained than that would probably be overkill for a grand historical strategy genre.

If you consider Earth's circumference is 24,901 miles (40,075 km), that works out to be just about 1000 game cells to accurately represent the east-to-west dimension of an Earth like planet and considering that significant portions of the extreme latitudes are pretty irrelevant to human history (in any direct sense, and modern nuclear missile sub lurking excuded ) then a game world that was 500? maybe 750 x 1000 cells? 750,000 cells each of which may have hundreds perhaps a couple thousand variables associated with it, and most of which would need to be editable during game play, not to mention the graphics; my reasons for keeping graphics relatively 'simple' may make more sense now?

The scale of what I have envisioned is probably beyond any game so far developed. This conception is not just a flight of fancy; I've been thinking about this during all the years I've played Civ and other historical and strategy games, and I'm convinced that if we want to usher in a new era of amazing historical strategy games, then such games need to be based on this sort of massive, and detailed model for representing the places in which history unfolds.

Only game I'm aware of that seem to be dealing with game worlds that are anywhere near that size is Minecraft. This is a major reason (along with Persson being filthy rich! [:D]) that I've so far leaned Java. I would love for someone who knows game programming to tell me with some conclusiveness if this vision is even tenable given modern hardware and software.

Related issues: there should be as much possible detail about each of these cells as possible and as much player flexibility in interacting with, shaping, and capitalizing on the resources of the world as possible. I don't know if I'd want to take it all the way to the level of Linnaean Taxonomy and modern Mineralogy/Forestry splitting of resources, but somewhere between that and the "Cow, Pig, Sheep, Fruit . . ." resolution of the Civ series is where I see it.

2. Obviously games must employ abstractions to be playable and to be developed within a timeframe that is feasible economically. That said, I want a grand society building game in which real biology, real psychology, real anthropology and possibly (eventually, probably) real history are the foundations for how the game plays. I say that being based on history is optional, but that doesn't mean that historically implausible or "sociologically-implausible" things should be afforded. All I mean by that is: initially the game may well need to have a "vanilla" flavor, in which there is little to no reference to the actual cultures and languages of Earth. This is because the real innovation I want to offer is in the way the game plays, not simply a more voluminous, precise, detailed or in depth replay of historical events. Not that I would be opposed to the game going in that direction, but I'd like the initial game to simply focus on portraying social, psychological, cultural and military events in the evolution of "a" society and its neighbors in as accurate and believable a fashion as possible.

The labor of creating the content to make the game "play through history" would likely be two to three times the scale of the basic game design itself (which is itself, likely many years of work). As such, I see the initial game having perhaps only one "playable" Civ and covering only a meager portion of human natural history (Neolithic to Dawn of Monotheism perhaps??, something along those lines). I may even opt for an even more abstract version of it, if generating the details for the AI societies proves to be just too much work and making them up would be quicker. Beta or Episode 2 or Expansions 1, etc., can always start to build the real Earth history into the game, but the main thing is to get a game that is sound, fun and compelling prototyped first.

3. If possible, gameplay should approximate real-time pausible and with adjustable time progression scales. An option to include a tactical level builder / combat interface to which play cuts from the strategic level map or when the player seeks to focus on her society at a more fine-grained level. I'm a big fan of the turn-based tactical battles games like "Temple of Elemental Evil" and "Jagged Alliance." Forge of Freedom took a crack at this, and it was good except that the random maps were a bit too random and homogeneous and the AI a bit predictable. I was impressed to learn that every tactical map in Rome Total War corresponds to one strategic map cell and when I realized that, including that in my vision was inevitable.

As far as development of the vision: I intend to do it alone, mainly because I'm the only one I can depend on for sure, but lots of other reasons. If and when it ever starts to take sail and I'm getting people coming to its website and maybe making Paypal donations for the pre-alpha free version, I'd consider starting to get help. But until that time, I feel that I need to do it alone in order to learn enough about all aspects of it that I can remain in the lead of it, no matter how far it goes, or on the other hand, if it just totally fizzles and goes nowhere, I will have no one to blame but myself.

The first game will be as simple as possible while still aspiring to the broad design goals described above. There are lots of other little things I have in my mind, but that is the main stuff.

So, what engine do you think is suitable for that?

[Franciscus]

Hi

The only AGE engine I know is the one made by Philippe Malacher (aka Pocus) and that is used in all Ageod games. It was not used in Distant Worlds, and IMHO cannot be used in your project - and it wouldn't be suitable at all.

Best regards

[Anthropoid]

Thanks Franciscus. That is strange. I could swear I found some thing on the interwebs stating that "Distant Worlds was developed in the AGE Engine."

[Kuokkanen]

Man, you're frakkin' megalomaniac!

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

The labor of creating the content to make the game "play through history" would likely be two to three times the scale of the basic game design itself (which is itself, likely many years of work). As such, I see the initial game having perhaps only one "playable" Civ and covering only a meager portion of human natural history (Neolithic to Dawn of Monotheism perhaps??, something along those lines). I may even opt for an even more abstract version of it, if generating the details for the AI societies proves to be just too much work and making them up would be quicker. Beta or Episode 2 or Expansions 1, etc., can always start to build the real Earth history into the game, but the main thing is to get a game that is sound, fun and compelling prototyped first.

That sounds like practical approach: start with small map and limited timeline to see if game works. Then build from there. Actually you could make multiple games, where early games focus on specific area and time period and final game is the world and its whole history. Of course you wouldn't need start each game from scratch, but copy-paste maps and stuff from previous games to newer ones. Alternatively you could have just 1 game you update with patches of new features, maps, and scenarios/campaigns.

If possible, gameplay should approximate real-time pausible and with adjustable time progression scales.

Are you familiar with game titles that begin with UFO, X-Com, or XCOM? Those have neat world-wide strategic maps that are real-time (pausable). Let's play video about UFO: Extraterrestrials becouse that is Matrix title.

[Anthropoid]

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

Man, you're frakkin' megalomaniac!

Its a fine line between ambitious visionary and raving megalomaniac [:D]

I dunno, perhaps I am the latter but hopefully I'm more like the former.

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

The labor of creating the content to make the game "play through history" would likely be two to three times the scale of the basic game design itself (which is itself, likely many years of work). As such, I see the initial game having perhaps only one "playable" Civ and covering only a meager portion of human natural history (Neolithic to Dawn of Monotheism perhaps??, something along those lines). I may even opt for an even more abstract version of it, if generating the details for the AI societies proves to be just too much work and making them up would be quicker. Beta or Episode 2 or Expansions 1, etc., can always start to build the real Earth history into the game, but the main thing is to get a game that is sound, fun and compelling prototyped first.

That sounds like practical approach: start with small map and limited timeline to see if game works. Then build from there. Actually you could make multiple games, where early games focus on specific area and time period and final game is the world and its whole history. Of course you wouldn't need start each game from scratch, but copy-paste maps and stuff from previous games to newer ones. Alternatively you could have just 1 game you update with patches of new features, maps, and scenarios/campaigns.

If possible, gameplay should approximate real-time pausible and with adjustable time progression scales.

Are you familiar with game titles that begin with UFO, X-Com, or XCOM? Those have neat world-wide strategic maps that are real-time (pausable). Let's play video about UFO: Extraterrestrials becouse that is Matrix title.

[/quote]

Yep. I had never played the Old UFO but I do have the new one. I enjoyed it a lot. The tactical battles are great and the combination of strategic level and tactical level I really like. The artwork is also good, perhaps the highest I'd ever aspire to given I'm not planning on a true 3D game.

The one thing about the new XCOM Enemy Unknown that I found slightly unfulfilling: the tactical maps felt a bit claustrophobic and busy to me. I cannot recall how much zooming and panning was possible on them, but it seems like it struck me as not being quite enough. Course a HUGE upgrade from old isometric games (which were nonetheless masterpieces for their time), such as Temple of Elemental Evil or Jagged Alliance or Jagged Edge.

Having explored a bit more, I'm edging away from Java. I have yet to hear anyone who has the expertise to know really give me a good accounting of:

(a) why Java was used for Minecraft in the first place.

(b) why, despite Java not being the 'ideal' for PC game design (or at least that is the prevailing reputation), it is also the language in which the single most valuable computer game ever made was written in.

(c) whether or not Java would be any better or worse at doing what I hope to do: Enormous map with extensive detailed data (though all in a relatively simple fake-3D / Isometric presentation)

I keep hearing the same things: C# for Indie developer path; C++ for aspiring employee with established studio path.

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

(a) why Java was used for Minecraft in the first place.

(b) why, despite Java not being the 'ideal' for PC game design (or at least that is the prevailing reputation), it is also the language in which the single most valuable computer game ever made was written in.

Did you know stuff written with Java can be run in other operating systems besides Windows? Same code, different operating systems, different computer architectures even.

Code once, debug everywhere

[Anthropoid]

I did 'know' that, or at least I was aware that Java was incredibly well-suited for cross-platform, and networked contexts. Your use of "code once, debug everywhere" does indeed make the broader implications more clear.

Still two things though:

1. Despite those strengths, I hear lots of internet forum respondents point out Java's flaws: it is slow, it doesn't have nearly the same compendium of libraries available for it . . . other criticisms too, but those are the main ones. What I'm understanding is that C++ allows considerably more 'fine-grained' control over anything and everything that occurs within a game; C# a bit less of a fine-grained level of control; and Java an even higher-level. This lack of 'low-level' control can also be thought of as a weakness of Java (or so I understand it) but it is also a weakness or at least a 'burden' for the C++ designer, in that finger-resolution of control also requires greater attention to detail, more time, arguably a greater understanding of the code?

2. The fact that Java is cross-platform and network friendly doesn't explain Minecraft's popularity, nor would it seem to have been 'necessary' for the popularity of the game itself. People like the game because it is fun. I would think one could make a game just as fun as Minecraft in C# or C++, hell you might even be able to make a game no less fun using little more than HTML5, CSS and PHP (and not counting the code involved in making teh visuals and sounds you'd need to use within that "browser game" format) I'd think! Being in Java might have assisted in the expanding popularity of the game and the expansion of the game into multiple platforms, but the game had to be "fun" in order for that benefit of Java to be of any real utility.

Can someone who understands this stuff answer a couple basic questions:

A. If Persson had developed Minecraft in C# or C++ or Python, etc., instead of in Java, would it have actually made a damn bit of difference to either (i) what he was able to get the game to do or (ii) how popular it became?

B. If Skyrim were developed in Java (instead of, as I understand it a Bethesday proprietary engine that is based off of C++ and Python??), would it have actually made a damn bit of difference to either (i) what they were able to get the game to do or (ii) how popular it became?

[Kuokkanen]

Games made with Java could have
1. higher hardware requirements
2. worse graphics
Choose one.

I leave it for others to tell you the rest.

[Anthropoid]

Aight Matti . . . b/w you and the half-dozen other forums where I've posted this or similar questions, I think my leaning toward starting with Java has been 'fixed' and I'm leaning toward C++. Probably the straw was this comment by a fellow a the Tech.forums.net forums

IMO it's a good idea to start with lower-level languages anyway. That way you get an actual understanding of how things work in higher level languages.

In my college courses, we started with C++. We weren't allowed to use any libraries other than the standard library/iostream/file stream libraries really. Everything else we had to make ourselves (such as Linked Lists, Binary Trees, stacks, queues, etc.). Really taught us how these data structures worked and how to use them/make them perform decently.

Now I'm pretty much soley a C# developer, which is a much higher-level and pure OOPL, but I still understand the underlying objects/structures.

After you get good with C++ and understand it, move over to Java or C# (depending on what you're doing, of course) if you want to do something else.

It makes sense. If you want to be a biologist, you should take at least Intro Chem and Intro Organic Chem early in your training. Always a good idea to start at lower resolutions and work your way up (within reason).

[PipFromSlitherine]

That is true to some extent. However, if you just want to build a game then it's perfectly reasonable to use middleware etc to get that done. If Java actually made development simpler I would recommend it, but all my (and ours, as a company) experience says that it just doesn't. You just get a boatload of compatibility and SDK version issues which are entirely out of your control to solve. C++ or C# are good choices, but only start building your own container classes etc if you really want to and are interested in the low level (e.g. are going to build your own engines etc). If you just want to make a game and that is your primary concern then there is little downside in starting at a higher level, certainly for a first project. Nothing stops you from moving to lower level code later on. But trying to start too low level will probably (a) take far longer to get anything running, (b) your implementation is unlikely to be as good/fast/robust as one from a mature library.

Cheers

Pip

[Anthropoid]

Here is what I think will happen:
1. I study a bit of C++ and get a starter foundation in it.
2. I do a certificate in it next year and use that to build up skills.
3. Use Unity to build the game prototype (and pick up some C# in the process).
4. Maybe have a prototype to (a) put on Kickstarter and (b) recruit some talent within 2 years.
5. Realize that, being locked into Unity is not ideal and what I would prefer is to bite the bullet and make my own engine in C++
6. Accept the tradeoff and forge ahead and have an alpha release to try to get on Steam a year or two after that.
7. Global domination

Actually though, I'm really wondering if I want to be a game developer. After all, these dumbasses are probably pretty representative of who my "clients" will be [&:][:(]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEuI3Lc-3do

[Kuokkanen]

You forgot these:
8. ??
9. Profit

[Gilmer]

It sounds like an excellent idea one of which I briefly thought about and had hoped someone would make.

[Anthropoid]

I may just see about using the AG Engine. The allure of more sophisicated landscapes and stuff is hard to resist. But thing is, Distant Worlds (and many other games) which has fairly 'crude' graphics is very successful. Given it is a first game, why kill myself trying to make it the equivalent of Skyrim!? After all, Daggerfall was just about as crude as they come.

[Kuokkanen]

I offer you something more to think about. You could recruit other people to help you with the game. Coders, graphic designers and others. If you make game and its source code available for free, it makes it easiest for other people to join you. I give you some examples about such games I'm familiar with.

Battle for Wesnoth
Fantasy war game with similarities to Fantasy General and Panzer General/Corps. Many scenarios and campaigns made by designers and players alike. Long list of different languages, around 50 if I recall correctly. Few (if any) commercial games can match THAT.

MegaMek
Digital version of BattleTech wargame coded with Java.

MekWars
This game takes MegaMek and makes it part of an MMO wargame campaign system. Different campaign servers provide much variety for conquest of the Inner Sphere between human players (each server has its own client for download, don't cross-use). At end of one battle over planet Rasalhague, I had left only 1 heavy tank (Partisan) with ammunition only for machine guns and front side shot open. Other player had only missile carrier without any ammo left. He tried ram his missile carrier at my tank, but I didn't let him. Finally my machine guns cracked armor open and killed the crew. That got me enough %s of the planet to change its control (and factories) to my faction (Lyran Commonwealth).

Before MekWars was MegaMekNET and before that was MegaMek.NET. MegaMekNET was practically just slight name change. Then development team got into disagreements and group split apart. Few continued working with MegaMekNET according their vision while others renamed their interpretation to MekWars. Later some people called it quits and other members of the teams got back together to continue work under MekWars name alone. If you choose to make your game and its source code available for all, that can happen with it: people can download your code and start their own game projects with it as their base.

Or take a look at Doom. Ever heard about that game? Its source code was made available for free. And what fans did with it? Brutal Doom and jDoom, among others.

[Lützow]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid


Actually though, I'm really wondering if I want to be a game developer. After all, these dumbasses are probably pretty representative of who my "clients" will be [&:][:(]

I had similiar thoughts 5 years ago and after some investigation about working conditions and earning potential in game industry decided to take another route for my programming ambition. Ask an average game developer about his income, weekly work hours and deadlines. Web development is in higher demand, less stressful and better payed. I get hourly wages up to € 70,-

Eventually, I will have a look into Unity, but more out of curiosity. I rather purchase games instead of making my own ones.