The Great Patriotic War (loki100 vs SigUp) ... SigUp welcome to read

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

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jwolf
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RE: T68-69 1-14 October 1942

Post by jwolf »

Now to see what happens if I risk a return to being at all warlike.

Good question. I would suppose there is a lot of difference between adequate defensive supply vs adequate supply for a serious offensive or even a really sustained counterattack.

Can you tell how much of your supply troubles are due to the change to 1.08 as opposed to how much from losing or rebuilding a lot of factories? Or, for that matter, how much is really intrinsic to the Soviet economy no matter what?
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loki100
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RE: T68-69 1-14 October 1942

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: jwolf
Now to see what happens if I risk a return to being at all warlike.

...

Can you tell how much of your supply troubles are due to the change to 1.08 as opposed to how much from losing or rebuilding a lot of factories? Or, for that matter, how much is really intrinsic to the Soviet economy no matter what?

In truth it all is due to the changes in 1.08 ... and I say that from a perspective of applauding the overall thrust of those chances both for realism and their impact on gameplay.

My immediate response to SigUp's renewed offensive was twofold. One was to block off access to decent supply lines and the other was a massive deployment of the VVS. Under 1.07 both were sustainable, under 1.08 both fed into a problem that was inherent in the patch, and related to gameplay that had become standard (& in my case unreflective) in 1941.

The shift of the HI multiplier in 1942 from 1.2 to 1 sounds trivial, but has profound effects on supply generation. The consensus was for Soviet players to be prepared to lose HI but save arms pts. I'll happily confess I had no master plan as to what number of HI I could cope with, I just got out as much as I could (including some 'inefficient' batches of 1-3 where I had spare rail pts), but always with the mindset that HI was the lowest priority - there is a warning in here about trusting received wisdom without thinking about it yourself.

To anyone starting out, I'd say carefully study the Soviet OOB and industrial position in the June 1942 start scenario. In the absence of any better information, that has to be the base line to plan for. If you can't match the industrial position then you'll struggle to match the OOB - as I test and without any moves on either side I just ran that forward 6 turns and overall it leaves the Soviets in the sort of comfortable supply position that most players experienced in the 1.07 iterations - in other words you have supply problems in some places for reasons of distribution not of global production.

There are then some wrinkles in 1.08 that Morvael is revising, and has revised, the biggest I think wil be the ability to tinker at the level of global choices - do I fully fund the supply demand of equipment production, or of fort building? This sounds far better than the current lunacy of moving bits of factories so as to remove them from production for a period.

Overall if 1.08 works as intended, what should be normal is a trade off. Extracting sufficient HI will cost a lot of rail pts and demand more time. That should reduce Soviet rail capacity for unit moves in 1941 (so both the traditional, gamey, stunt of stripping the Ukraine and bringing up the new arrivals/returns from the Urals). It should also mean a more committed defence of key factory groups to buy the time needed. Again I think this has implications for standard Soviet play in the Ukraine, you'll have to hold the axis away from Kharkov and the Dombas much longer, and lose more arms pts from Dnepropetrovsk and the lower Dneipr as you pull out some HI.

Whether the final outcome will be a more realistic Soviet supply position in 1942 I don't know - ie a global shortage forcing some pretty radical prioritisation. There was a reason why the Soviets took no advantage of the full commitment of the Pzrs in the south ... compare that to late 42 and throughout 43 when inept but regular attacks in the Moscow region were a regular part of Soviet operations. But if you want a full industry in 1942 you are going to have to lose more units in 1941, in turn weakening the winter offensive, in turn leaving the Germans more dangerous for the summer of 1942.
ORIGINAL: jwolf

Good question. I would suppose there is a lot of difference between adequate defensive supply vs adequate supply for a serious offensive or even a really sustained counterattack.

truth be told, I don't really know. My supply allocation to ammunition production has been low for some time, I've managed to squeeze down the usage for replacements etc. Both will rise if I go over to offensive operations and that is before more direct supply consumption due to renewed operations.

My feeling is, if I can, I'd like to have the global supply line, as shown on HQs > 200% before the November snows. I'll then just have to test it out. I lack the capacity to attack from Cherepovets to Rostov in any case (all those level #3 forts are too depressing to even look at), not least till some of the major rivers freeze, SigUp's lines are too well anchored (as, of course, are mine). So I think I can start with a 2 Front operation, backed by tactical not level bombers and see what the impact is. Odds on of course this will repeat the problem I've struggled with all summer which is that localised, even if powerful, offensive are all too easy to seal off.
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morvael
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RE: T68-69 1-14 October 1942

Post by morvael »

HI multiplier will be higher in next patch. Consumption will be lower. Still, there could be shortages in 1941 and 1942 but it will be possible to slightly reduce production or fort building to get more for the units. As tested on the 1942 GC (with 217 HI), there is a surplus of 12k for the Soviets with the front passive at full production. Anyway, for anyone starting a long campaign I suggest to save as many HI factories as possible.

And I applaud loki100 for remaining so adamant in face of adversities not of his own making, yet being flexible enough to adjust his style of play to circumvent problems with the beta patch.
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M60A3TTS
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RE: T68-69 1-14 October 1942

Post by M60A3TTS »

The idea of making the Soviet fight forward by making HI relevant is well intended but provides a rather one-sided result.

Among the historical issues facing the OstHeer by the end of 1941, one was their casualty count that had reached 830,403 or 25.96% of the force according to Franz Halder's diary. General Keitel reported by that time that most 1st Lieutenants and Captains were commanding battalions. They were looking at the prospect of disbanding divisions in order to fill others with sufficient number of infantry. Now in terms of game play if the Soviets are made to fight forward, sure, their casualty count goes up, but the Germans are not going to lose 800k men as a result. The combat engine and pocket process just isn't going to support that. So the Soviets take the hit and the Germans do not and this change becomes a simple play balancer.

Loki, you can forget the whole notion of operating the Soviet side with 217 HI in the Grand Campaign against a competent Axis player. Ain't happening. There isn't anywhere near sufficient rail capacity in 1941 to move troops and industry and only lose 19 HI (Soviet starts the game with 236) without crippling your arms count or wiping the Red Army from the map. You are best to plan for retaining between 170-190 HI and keeping the Red Army around 8 million through most of 1943 at least. In terms of air forces, by end of 1943 most LBs should be out of the picture, replaced by tac bombers to save supply which it appears you have largely done already.



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loki100
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RE: T68-69 1-14 October 1942

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

... . Now in terms of game play if the Soviets are made to fight forward, sure, their casualty count goes up, but the Germans are not going to lose 800k men as a result. The combat engine and pocket process just isn't going to support that. So the Soviets take the hit and the Germans do not and this change becomes a simple play balancer.

Loki, you can forget the whole notion of operating the Soviet side with 217 HI in the Grand Campaign against a competent Axis player. Ain't happening. There isn't anywhere near sufficient rail capacity in 1941 to move troops and industry and only lose 19 HI (Soviet starts the game with 236) without crippling your arms count or wiping the Red Army from the map. You are best to plan for retaining between 170-190 HI and keeping the Red Army around 8 million through most of 1943 at least. In terms of air forces, by end of 1943 most LBs should be out of the picture, replaced by tac bombers to save supply which it appears you have largely done already.

I think there are two related issues but its best not to get them mixed up. One is realism and the other is play balance. Given the massive bug hunt that Morvael et al have been on since the later 1.07 patches, its inevitable that some balance issues emerge. I think it was MichaelT who was bemoaning the patching process as at some stage in 1.06, by his somewhat skewed criteria, the game was balanced.

Now there is a huge legacy of past experience around this game. Even coming to it relatively late in its development cycle, you quickly pick up on some concepts that have been developed and cherished over the game's iteration. One that might be relevant here is Pelton's 'AP crunch concept' where if the Soviet player fails to retain enough arms pts factories they cannot cope with the various 1942 upgrade cycle. If I understand properly, that is probably the core to the logic of not worrying too much about HI as arms pts are so vital.

Now I think 1.08 has cured a lot of that arms pt demand. Before the patch I had 400,000 in the pool (ok this reflected that in 1.07 a lot of swapping did not happen as it should), it was down to 80,000 by the end of July (but I was raising an awful lot of fresh units), by the time we got to 1.081 I was back up to 180,000, it then took another tumble (as the units in contact were able to go > 60% TOE) back down to 75,000, since then, despite a lot of upgrades, its back up at 350,000 (& going up net 60,000 a turn).

So it *may*, and lets be cautious here, that the solution is let more arms pts go, you can cope with less than past experience dictates to save the HI.

In other words, we have to understand the systems and the way they interact before trying to achieve balance. I suspect imposing balance by means of an arbitrary fix (like the Soviet +1 odds shift) has been a regular feature of WiTE's development. The problem is after each round of patching, those fixes run the risk of sending the game off the rails one way or another.

We know that some core systems are not right and can't be changed. HQBU, too low attacker losses, frictionless rails are 3 that come easily to mind. So once its clear how 1.08 is working, and once it is working as envisaged, that is the time to look for fixes, I do think there is a lot of playing by numbers going on, as opposed to rethinking of strategies.

and ... for all I know, you could well be utterly correct [:)]

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M60A3TTS
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RE: T68-69 1-14 October 1942

Post by M60A3TTS »

All of the fixes over the years have been largely driven to draw the confluence of the battle lines to what people see as appropriate in a battle among equals. What has been left by the wayside was any attempt to reflect the true brutality of the conflict of those 4 years. By the end of 1941, both sides were exhausted, save for the reserves the Soviets brought up to launch the winter campaign. But the result in game is, again among equals, the lines are roughly where they were historically although it seems Leningrad again is easier pickings.

The end result of the long arms point discussion has seen Soviet multipliers consistently reduced, which has been fine because the Soviets often end up with substantial surpluses anyways. But let's for the sake of discussion, look at what you might end up with from a production standpoint if you set your HI target goal at an even 220. I will set my target goal at 170 HI. You will need 500k rail points (50*10,000) more than I to meet your goal. That rounds out to a cost to you of 83 arms points (500k/6k-cost of an arms factory evacuation), so under your floor of 220 HI, you will have 83 less arms than me with my HI floor of 170. Those 83 arms reflect about 22% of the starting arms capacity of 370. And finally we have to take into account what both of us would lose in arms in 1941, and a reasonable # if you manage it well enough would be let's say 50.

Our respective models then look like this: you have 220 HI and 237 arms while I have 170 HI and 320 arms before multipliers are considered. Now we can discuss the net effect for the entire game, but I submit to you the effects in the summer of 42 the results would be telling. That is when, on top of the lovely 40 national morale, you are needing to replace divisions and are falling back on your own rail net, meaning less impact on supply but needing arms to flesh out the rifle divisions. It's not a pretty picture where you could be running a dearth of arms points from November 41 to some period of the summer of 42. And that's going to help decide whether you survive long enough to turn the tide. In both HI scenarios if we both survive, one would think you will advance faster with your better supplied army. But I think there are enough things I can still do to keep up a sufficient rate of advance by not attacking everywhere, moving everything, keeping a healthy # of RR construction brigades, and keeping the RR repair corps tucked up behind the key fronts on the offensive.
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morvael
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RE: T68-69 1-14 October 1942

Post by morvael »

Less HI and more ARM means even more drain on supplies. This is historical. Soviet soldiers went hungry in 41-42 but had a lot of ammo to fire from their guns. I think a reasonable balance will be between 190 and 200 HI evacuated and on occasion production will have to be slowed down to keep the armies supplied in next patch.
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T70-T73 15 October – 12 November 1942

Post by loki100 »

T70-T73 15 October – 12 November 1942: “To Gibbets, and the Dead”

With the return of the autumn rains the potential for any offensive action ceased. South of Rostov some clashes took place in the rare periods when the ground dried out but even here it was a matter of Soviet advance guards pressing too far and being caught by local axis counter-strokes. Losses mirrored this relative cessation of active combat and totalled 33,000 for the axis and 130,000 for the Soviets.

However, the apparent inactivity masked three critical shifts in the war.

Offensive Preparations

On the ground, both sides redeployed for the winter battles. Facing roughly even numbers of men (but with a huge advantage in terms of number of guns and tanks) Stavka gambled. The front lines (apart from immediately at Moscow) were stripped of manpower and the equivalent of four complete Fronts were drawn into reserve (the newly formed South Western, Bryansk, Voronezh and the elite formations of Leningrad and North Western Fronts) and the rest were starved of replacements and stripped of specialist support units.

Stavka's plan was to gamble that the reduced forces of Volkhov, Don, Stalingrad, North Caucasus and Trans-Caucasus Fronts could hold their respective sectors. Western and Kalinin Fronts were to defend Moscow and despite not being expected to undertake independent offensive actions, were equally reinforced so as to protect the still vulnerable capital.

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Critically almost 50% of the Soviet tank force was allocated to the three reserve fronts to the south of Moscow (Bryansk, Voronezh and South Western). However, North Western and Leningrad Fronts had over 19,000 guns (around 18% of the total) of Soviet artillery between them, with this representing the bulk of the heavier guns and katyushas. This simple distinction reflected the major differences in Stavka's estimate of the likely nature of any offensive on the two sectors.

A key preparation for the planned winter offensives had been Don, Stalingrad and the two Caucasus Front re-establishing contact with the Axis forces in positions abandoned in August. The other fronts occupied some of their old defensive positions but primarily deployed where Stavka planned to launch a sequence of counter-attacks.

The Air War

If the Germans had ceased major ground operations, they made up for this by a renewal of their onslaught on the VVS. The week 15-21 October set the template, when they effectively seized control of the skies south of Moscow destroying 134 Soviet aircraft for only 21 of their own. Their new FW-190s proved too much for most Soviet fighters and the substantial numbers of Bf-109Gs added to the pressure. The following week saw a similar pattern and it became painfully clear that the Yak-1 was now effectively obsolete.

Strangely, the VVS' most effective weapon remained the U2 biplane. Able to evade most German fighters, and ignore most AA, these continued to extract a regular toll from German units around Ryazan, north of Moscow and the Rumanian units at Rostov. By 29 October, the VVS had withdrawn many fighter squadrons to rest and refit and Luftwaffe sought to take revenge on the U2s. For the first time since June 1941 substantial numbers of Soviet aircraft were bombed on the ground leading to 500 Soviet losses up to 12 November for only 50 Axis planes. Most of the Soviet losses were U2s. In response, the night harassment raids were stepped up as the VVS refused to accept defeat.

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(not shown is that overall I lost about 300 planes on the ground, almost all U2-VS. This reduces my stockpile to less than 2,500).

The German fighters now had complete control of the skies around Ryazan. Attempts at reconnaissance flights met with significant losses and it proved impossible to conduct any offensive missions on this sector at all.

In response, by 12 November, Stavka started to bring back the re-equipped fighter squadrons. At Moscow, most were now Yak-9/7B/1B or La-5. If the VVS could not manage control of the skies it was still going to have to fend off the German fighters to ensure that Soviet bombers managed to support the Red Army.

The Industrial War

The final aspect of the war took place well to the rear. The German summer offensive had exposed numerous weaknesses in Soviet industry and its capacity to supply combat operations.

In response, Stavka had disbanded a significant number of formations [1] and reduced the flow of replacements to major sectors of the front. In addition, the VVS' active commitment was drastically reduced and most 2 and 4 engine bombers held back in the Urals. This had saw a steady improvement in the supply position till many VVS fighter and Il-2 squadrons were assigned to forward airbases on 12 November [2].

Image

As noted that presents three views on what is going on. The graph is from the production report and shows % of supply in units (although not clear this has shifted from 26.7% to 30.5% and back down to 29.1%). The table shows production and varying usage.

I can understand the shifts in usage, as I've moved some factories and a few turns most the army stood still (so little new fortification efforts). I'm not sure why supply production is shifting as there is no resource shortage and no HI factories are damaged.

Even the limited return of the VVS between T72 and T73 seems to have had an adverse effect as I increased the number deployed from 3,200 to 4,200 (I've added another 600 during T73). I'm in a problem here as I don't have any other combat arm that can really help offset the relative numerical balance between the two armies.

Preparation for a renewed offensive

With these constraints, the Red Army had 300,000 less men in the front line units on 12 November than it had on 30 September. On the other hand, reserve manpower was up from 250,000 to over 1 million and armaments were 500,000.

Despite these problems, after long debates Soviet forces were taking up positions for the opening blow of their Winter 1942-3 offensive [3]. Stavka's overall goal was clear, the Germans had to be forced back from Moscow and dislodged from their positions threatening the Volga.

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Overall, German numbers have remained static as have their allies. This gives them 5.7 million men, 55,000 guns, 6,400 AFVs and 4,500 planes.

My numbers are down due to the programme of disbanding formations and reducing the TOE of others. I have an advantage of 7.7:5.7 in raw manpower, 2:1 in artillery, 4:3 in AFVs and 2:1 in planes (but as is clear I can't make full use of this particular advantage).

In detail, the VVS had 3200 fighter bombers (2250 at the front), 2601 tactical bombers (2000 at the front), 2200 level bombers (200 at the front), 650 transports (60 at the front), 300 reconnaissance (200 at the front). Of the level bombers, the front line squadrons consisted purely of lend lease A-20s or B-25s or the new Tu-2.

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(Tu-2s in training in the Urals)

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In particular the fighter arm was hastily being re-equipped following recent defeats by the Germans with most of the better squadrons already using Yak-9/7B/1B or the La-5. The new lend lease P-40s were also being incorporated [4]

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In terms of available artillery, 35% of all guns were in fact medium mortars but following recent re-organisations, heavier guns and katyushas were now concentrated in the formations designated to lead the various planned winter offensive operations. The AT stock had been re-organised and all the specialist formations using the 45mm had been scrapped and were slowly being replaced by units using the heavy 107mm. The 45mm remained the main AT gun, but was now only used as part of divisional assets.

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The 7,100 tanks were divided between 3,200 light tanks (still mostly T-60s) and 3,700 medium tanks. Given their disappointing combat performance, only a few formations still deployed the KVs [5]. The flame tanks were allocated to a single Shock Army being trained and equipped to overcome the strongest German fortification belt.

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Substantial reserves of the main types existed to replace losses.

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[1] – basically the brigades that can't convert to divisions, divisions with low morale and many losses, support units that effectively duplicate the equipment in divisional TOEs or are expensive to replace.
[2] – I'm going to keep a close eye on this, I've tried not to exceed the basic supply level of any airbase, but I need to concentrate.
[3] – I've changed my mind about where to start at least three times, and have finally decided how where the secondary offensives will fall, as well as deployments to raise some doubts as to quite what is the real target,
[4] – I'm juggling re-equipment with an eye on the implication of the shift to 32 plane squadrons in December. Ideally I want enough in the pool that the key squadrons can increase their strength without having to scrap units. If I need, I'll swap out some of the less competent formations to obsolete planes so as to free up their aircraft for re-allocation.
[5] – they are only part of the mech corps TOE. I need to think about raising some specialist heavy tank regiments, less for their value with KV1/42 and more so that when first the KV/85 and then the IS-2 arrives I have formations with decent experience levels to absorb them.
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M60A3TTS
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RE: T70-T73 15 October – 12 November 1942

Post by M60A3TTS »

You can scrap 80-90% of the Pe-2 and IL-4 LB regiments in the reserve. Fact is, you'll be hard pressed to properly supply your troops with more than 20 or so of those regiments in the field. Tac bombers will of course eat much less supply.
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gingerbread
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RE: T70-T73 15 October – 12 November 1942

Post by gingerbread »

All very nice, but where are your artillery divisions? Moscow and Volga can each hold two full Artillery Armies, but I don't think you have the AP to build quite that many. But some, like 9 div for one Army, is necessary to stay in colour when playing the Russians in WWII. Surely, you're not saving up AP to have a 30 or 40 Rifle Corps splash when the cost hit 10 AP in '43? That would be an example of putting the wagon in front of the horse.

I've never seen nor used a large number of 107mm AT units. They have a short span of availability so a couple of extra to get replacement guns could be warranted. They do have the capability to punch through the front of Panthers, the trick is to get them in a position to fire and hit.
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RE: T70-T73 15 October – 12 November 1942

Post by comte »

Loki What is HQBU? I have seen this referenced in the WITW forums as well.
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RE: T70-T73 15 October – 12 November 1942

Post by jwolf »

HQBU = headquarters buildup, a way to stockpile fuel and supplies for panzer units.

Loki, how did you mask your units near Moscow in the screenshot?
charlie0311
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RE: T70-T73 15 October – 12 November 1942

Post by charlie0311 »

All you guys are really quite amazing..
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RE: T70-T73 15 October – 12 November 1942

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: morvael

Less HI and more ARM means even more drain on supplies. This is historical. Soviet soldiers went hungry in 41-42 but had a lot of ammo to fire from their guns. I think a reasonable balance will be between 190 and 200 HI evacuated and on occasion production will have to be slowed down to keep the armies supplied in next patch.

I have a book written by Fitzroy Maclean (Eastern Approaches), it starts in 1936 when he was a military attache (ie a spy) at the British Embassy in Moscow with a fascinating and chilling account of the show trials of Bukharin and some other leaders of Soviet Republics who had fallen foul of Stalin. When the war broke out he joined the British SOE and fought with Tito's partisans from 1943-5. There is a telling account of the Red Army in action in the battle for Belgrade. He notes that every truck moving up to the front had ammunition or spare parts (no food etc) and those moving back carried the wounded. In effect the Red Army was still living off the land, he notes that even Tito's troops were surprised at how little rear area support they had. Now it might have been a special instance as the Soviet incursion into Yugoslavia was more akin to a raid to secure 3rd Ukrainian's flank as they pushed into southern Hungary, but its indicative of the priorities they operated with.
ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

You can scrap 80-90% of the Pe-2 and IL-4 LB regiments in the reserve. Fact is, you'll be hard pressed to properly supply your troops with more than 20 or so of those regiments in the field. Tac bombers will of course eat much less supply.

You probably are right, but I can't quite bring myself to do it. I'm using the Il-4 squadrons to convert to newer planes, such as the Tu-2s as you get a lot more bombs dropped for supply usage out of them, and its good to start with high morale. Also I think there are times when I want to do more than just hit the frontlines, so I'll keep the Pe-2s but use them sparingly
ORIGINAL: gingerbread

All very nice, but where are your artillery divisions? Moscow and Volga can each hold two full Artillery Armies, but I don't think you have the AP to build quite that many. But some, like 9 div for one Army, is necessary to stay in colour when playing the Russians in WWII. Surely, you're not saving up AP to have a 30 or 40 Rifle Corps splash when the cost hit 10 AP in '43? That would be an example of putting the wagon in front of the horse.

I've never seen nor used a large number of 107mm AT units. They have a short span of availability so a couple of extra to get replacement guns could be warranted. They do have the capability to punch through the front of Panthers, the trick is to get them in a position to fire and hit.

the numbers and location of the artillery divisions is currently a state secret. But one reason for my recent scrapping of SUs has been to release the gun types they will use. I'm also making use of the ability to load a shock army up to 21 command points, so say 4*rifle corps (16), a division (for reserve activation), an artillery division and in 1943 one of the combat engineer brigades. For two of them, I've removed some of the front line formations in favour of even more artilley (really for taking the heaviest defended positions).

In addition, I've kept 3 airborne corps HQs so they can hold 4 artillery divisions each. As things are working out, I may even have a spare combined arms HQ (since I doubt I can cope with a much larger army till 1944), by the time I rationalise my formations (with the recent disbands I have a few combined arms army HQs with a lot of spare slots)

I've not really been able to save admin pts till recently, and then I decided that a fast campaign of upgrading the VVS was a better approach, so the 1943 conversions can be done with the admin pts that arrive in 1943. I agree, I want artillery and I need it now.

Re the 107s, I'm not sure. I lost a couple of batteries in the summer battles, and its not easy to work out the impact (do like the WiTW reporting of losses etc). But I could do with something that will kill the better German tanks so these will do till the 85mm batteries and things like the SU-122 et al start to deploy.
ORIGINAL: Aces8

Loki What is HQBU? I have seen this referenced in the WITW forums as well.
ORIGINAL: jwolf

HQBU = headquarters buildup, a way to stockpile fuel and supplies for panzer units.

Loki, how did you mask your units near Moscow in the screenshot?

as jwolf says, its a means to priotise some motorised units for supply. The supply depot and priority system in WiTW is far better, and would have solved so many of my current problems. I could put some Fronts on 0 (and hope they don't need to fight) others on 1 or 2 (ie a guess at the intensity of any defensive fighting) to feed supply etc into the formations I want to attack with.

Instead in WiTE you have a mechanism to override supply shortages, its mainly of use for the Germans in 1941 and its rather open to abuse. Although Morvael has improved it a bit in 1.08 its still a case that the supply fairy arrives bearing gifts and it has little impact on the supply available on other sections.

For the screenshot I just took one picture with units displayed and one with them hidden (its the left hand option on the map options) and then merged them. I like to keep the details of my rear units hidden, from looking at his recon patterns, I'm sure that SigUp knows there is something there, but not what. Equally in a few places, I'm hoping he does indeed spot what is there and reacts to the potential threat.
ORIGINAL: charlie0311

All you guys are really quite amazing..

[8D]
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T74 - 13-19 November 1942

Post by loki100 »

T74 - 13-19 November 1942: “Vespers ... are sweeter than Matin”

In the air, the return of winter saw no change to the dynamics of the last month. South of Moscow the Luftwaffe continued to hold complete air superiority and launch repeated raids on the VVS bases in that sector. They also launched a number of attacks on the lower Don, presumably in an attempt to disrupt the steady Soviet build up on that sector.

Image

Stavka's response was pragmatic. Some units were rotated back to the Urals to regain morale and take on new planes and pilots. However, other units were fed into the maelstorm, quite simply it suited the Soviet high command for the best German fighters to be engaged well away from the focus of the opening Soviet blow.

When the plans for the second winter offensive were finalised, Vatutin could scarcely claim to have been surprised to find that Kalinin had been designated as his primary objective. Reclaiming this vital city, on the confluence of the Volga and Tveritsa, had been the goal of every offensive by North West Front since November 1941. This time though, Stavka planned an offensive drawing on both North Western and Leningrad Fronts as well as assets from Volkhov and Kalinin Front.

Long in the planning [1], the opening blow depended heavily on confusing the Germans as to the real focus. The opening stage was a sequence of night attacks by the U2s on known reserves and across the front line from Kalinin to Klin. This was followed by day light raids by well escorted Sturmoviks on the same targets.

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Both sides had grown used to the other and this pattern usually meant a ground offensive was planned. However, having indicated the centre of their attentions by the pattern of air-raids, the Soviet offensive opened on the flanks. Elements of 8 Army (Volkhov Front) and 21 Army (Kalinin Front) moved into contact as if they were the reconnaissance for a sustained attack [2]. With the German flanks fixed, the inexperienced 30 Army opened the offensive south of Klin. Attacking without air preparation, but with sufficient force to confuse the Germans, the attack was close to massacre as Soviet troops were quickly stalled by well dug in defensive lines and the prompt arrival of reserve formations from 42 Corps.

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Even as the shattered divisions of 30 Army fell back (and their places in the old front line taken by 1 and 2 Shock Armies), 52 Army struck on the northern end of the Lama defensive line. Better led, combat experienced and supported by the VVS, this was far more dangerous to the Germans.

In reality Govorov's riflemen exceeded Stavka's expectations, and again pulled German reserves away from the centre.

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With both ends of the Lama defensive line engulfed in chaos, and Soviet bombers flying close tactical support, the real attack went in. 1st and 2nd Shock Armies of Leningrad Front struck the centre of the German line.

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(Katyushas opening 1 Shock Army's offensive)

42 Corps' reserves were already committed as nearly 600 tanks operating in close support for the riflemen and shells from over 3000 guns fell on their 106 Infantry Division [3].

Despite being badly outnumbered, and struggling to convince their command this was the real Soviet attack, the German infantry fought with incredible bravery, knocking out 38 tanks before the sheer power of the Soviet offensive overwhelmed them.

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Even as 1 and 2 Shock tried to breach the defensive works of the Lama positions, Vatutin's elite formations hit Kalinin. Endless study of the ground and German deployments had convinced him that the simplest way to recapture the city was to attack it directly using 3 Armies (4 Shock, 55 and 31). 55 Army had the advantage of attacking out of the old Soviet bridgehead over the Volga but the other two had to cross the river under fire.

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(Elements of 4 Shock Army fighting for the Volga docks at Kalinin)

Over 4,000 guns (and the equivalent of 3 artillery divisions), plus earlier air bombardments had left 6 Corps' 294 Infantry Division shattered even before the main attack developed. With their reserves spent in the Lama battles, and their attention on sealing off the breakthrough by Leningrad Front, the German command failed to react and Kalinin fell with relative ease.

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The evening of 18 November saw 55 Army's mountain divisions moving through the exhausted assault divisions and taking up hasty defensive positions on the edge of the city to face any German counter-attack.

For the first time since December 1941, the Red Army had retaken a major city. Now the challenge was to hold it as a springboard to further offensive operations.

In the meantime to the South, Soviet armour, cavalry and infantry formations started to take up positions. Some were real preparations for an attack, some designed to confuse, some were done with almost wilful disregard for camouflage, others made the best use of cover that could be managed.

Critical to Stavka's plans was for the Germans to remain unsure where the next blow would fall. This might trap their reserves away from the critical sector or open the possibility of new attacks if they weakened one sector in order to reinforce elsewhere.


[1] – I've been plotting variants of this since the Summer, the main degree of uncertainty was whether to start with this stage or try, as so often, to stretch the German lines elsewhere first.
[2] – or, more simply moved to place the German lines on the extreme flanks in zones of control so as to stop any lateral movement of reserves
[3] – I do love Artillery Divisions rather than relying on support units

and

[4] - sorry if this is a bit long winded but after being battered all summer, I rather enjoyed that turn [:)]
jwolf
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RE: T74 - 13-19 November 1942

Post by jwolf »

sorry if this is a bit long winded but after being battered all summer, I rather enjoyed that turn

Perfectly understandable, and I don't blame you in the least! I'll bet SigUp was disappointed by that 2.03-1 battle.
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loki100
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RE: T74 - 13-19 November 1942

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: jwolf
sorry if this is a bit long winded but after being battered all summer, I rather enjoyed that turn

Perfectly understandable, and I don't blame you in the least! I'll bet SigUp was disappointed by that 2.03-1 battle.

it took me by surprise too, it had been well bombed in advance, had lots of disrupted units, the ground support air did more damage, but it still added 25% to its combat value in the actual fighting. Looking at what happened on the flank (where they gained almost 40%), I presume that corps was well led in that it seems to have passed most of the leadership checks.

On my side Zakharov has 7 for admin, 5 for armour and 7 for infantry and Malinovski (who is control of the front has 6 admin, 5 and 7 for infantry, so I had stacked the odds as well as I could. But I was very glad I'd spent time and effort working out how to trigger SigUp's reserves ... though even at the worst, the attack that mattered was Kalinin.
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T75 20 – 26 November 1942

Post by loki100 »

T75 20 – 26 November 1942: “The dying need but little”

Although Kalinin had been on the frontline since the Germans had captured the city in October 1941, so far it been spared major damage. It had been originally captured with relatively limited fighting and since then had only been damaged by some air-raids and the exchange of mortar and artillery fire across the Volga.

By 26 November it lay in ruins, having changed hands twice in a matter of days.

The German response to their defeat was quick as the bulk of 40 Panzer Corps drove the Soviet mountain divisions from the city and they hastily set about fortifying the ruins.

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However, the weather had converted their offensive into a trap. Full winter conditions struck northern Russia early [1], and the Volga froze. Whereas a week ago, 4 Shock and 31 Armies had had to cross the open river (with the additional challenge of the first ice of winter), now they could attack over its frozen surface.

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Even so, the offensive was developed methodically. The Germans had managed to block Leningrad Front on the Lama defensive line but had done so by concentrating their reserves where their fortification belt had been destroyed. To the south, 29 Army struck at 42 Infantry Corps in an attempt to draw off their reserves and 1 Shock and 52 Armies hit 5 Infantry Corps near Turginovo. Even the commitment of their reserve formations was not enough to stall the Soviet offensive.

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(Soviet armour refueling as they move up to the Lama)

With the German supporting units hit by sustained air attacks and artillery fire, North Western Front set about retaking Kalinin. The German armour proved to be ill suited to combat in the rubble strewn streets as Soviet riflemen again captured the city.

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(Elements of 4 Shock Army attacking Kalinin)

So far almost all the ground combat had been confined to 50 km running from Kalinin to the small town of Klin as the Soviets made yet another attempt to regain the Lama. German losses amounted to 25,000 men and 22 tanks while the Soviets had lost 78,000 men and 95 tanks. In the air the Luftwaffe maintained its strategy of hitting some airbases once or twice a day inflicting a further 118 losses on the VVS but lost 33 planes themselves.

In the air, both sides were running short of air reconnaissance planes as losses mounted. The lack of reliable intelligence made planning the next steps even more complex [2]. However, the sudden onset of winter offered the potential to radically change Stavka's original timetable. The frozen rivers of Central Russia were no barrier to either side launching a major offensive.

[1] – with random weather this is possible in November, and level 5 ice freezes minor rivers (8 for major ones). If we get another turn of blizzard then a lot of the map opens up (especially the Oka) much earlier than I had expected. I'm not really sure I want this to happen.
[2] - from a discussion as to why SigUp didn't spot my build up, in part its hard to gain good intelligence in poor terrain but he lacks the numbers of recon planes to really concentrate (I'm shooting down 11-13 per turn). I've a similar problem, plus my Pe-2r and SB-2r squadrons only slowly take on replacements so am reliant on the U2 recon planes (short range and not very useful).

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T76 27 November – 2 December

Post by loki100 »

T76 27 November – 2 December: “Futile the Winds”

Late November saw a relaxation of the freezing cold and blizzards of the previous week [1].

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Equally it saw a significant shift of focus on the battlefields. The Germans retook Kalinin and this time committed some of their best infantry divisions to defend the city.

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(the best I can manage is 90 attack cv, even with reserve commitment so given the extreme likelihood of German reserve activations there is no way could I risk an attack on Kalinin)

Stavka authorised the suspension of offensive operations. Despite this lull elements of Leningrad Front reached the Lama at the southern end of the Volga reservoir and the main assault formations remained near the front. It suited the Soviets to have the equivalent of 2 German armies pinned down north of Moscow.

In the air, the pattern of recent weeks continued. The Germans inflicted substantial losses to the south of Moscow and retained complete air superiority in the Ryazan-Tula sector [2]. However, north of Moscow the VVS exacted some revenge. Freed from the need to support ground operations, Soviet bombers hit the exposed German formations [3] and inflicted significant losses on Luftwaffe bases destroying a number of both fighters and German reconnaissance planes.

However, the decision to suspend the fighting at Kalinin did not mean a cessation of offensive activity. The next blow fell on the Tambov sector. In a repetition of previous tactics, considerable effort was made to disguise the true target and draw off German reserves

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(also shows location of main German reserves, after my attacks)

Elements of the Don Front to the north and Stalingrad Front to the south launched significant attacks.

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Artillery of the Don Front in action

Almost all failed, but forced the Germans to re-act, and to everyone's surprise an attack by 5 and 12 Armies punched in the German lines to the immediate north of Tambov and Soviet forces were able to advance deep into the German defensive belt [4], pinning their reserves.

Once the attention of the Germans was drawn to their flanks, Tolbukhin's Voronezh Front struck their 29 Infantry Corps south of Tambov.

The opening blow saw 58 and 46 Armies hit their northern positions and the attempt by some Slovakian formations to intervene did little but increase their losses. With their front line broken, the tanks of 1 and 3 Tank Army, backed by the new Katyusha brigades completed the process of breaching their front line

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KV1s of the new Mechanised Corps moving to the front

At this stage the Soviet forces became a little bit incautious, assuming the German reserves were spent. 2 Tank struck at the retreating 7th Infantry Division but ran into a SS formation redeploying from the fighting to the south. Although 2 Tank came close to breakthrough deep into the German rear, in the end, it became obvious that the Soviet tankers could not yet overcome the best of the German army in mobile warfare.

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Content, that he had done substantial damage to the German front lines, Tolbukhin pulled back the main assault formations. Whether the offensive would be renewed on this sector, or shift to a new angle of attack would depend on the German response [5], but increasingly each major offensive concentration was adding more and more artillery in an attempt to make up for weaknesses in front line manpower.

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The shift from the intensive infantry battles of Kalinin to the clash of armour was reflected in the relative losses. The Soviets lost 43,000 men, 300 tanks and 160 planes for German losses of 12,000 men, 10 tanks and 33 planes.

[1] – I'm actually rather pleased about this, while a significant part of my winter plans involve taking advantage of frozen rivers, I didn't fancy having the Oka frozen when my best units were fully committed elsewhere.
[2] – I can't manage any significant recon into this sector, between losses due to air interception and ground based flak its a death zone for my recon aircraft. The little I am managing, I am doing using U2 squadrons.
[3] – the difference between hitting units lacking fortifications (or at best level 1) and those well dug in?
[4] – My logic here is I have lots of manpower in the pool (around 1.2 million) that I can't use due to supply problems, so losses, as such, are not a concern. My NM is back to the 42/43 I've become used to, so I'm less worried that the -1 for a defeat is a permanent drop (which was the case in the summer) and my NM will go up to 47 in Jan 43 in any case. In effect, my one advantage is the number of formations I can field and this process of maskirovka attacks seems to be the way to exploit that. I'm aware that the Germans gain morale as a result, but my goal at this stage is to exhaust their best units, I'll worry about taking back ground in 1943.
[5] – I'm assuming that SigUp will run out of formations to plug the gaps before I run out of offensive formations. I still have 2 entire Fronts waiting for their chance. As I wreck his existing front line fortifications he'll need to ensure that he has more units filling the gaps (at least till he can rebuild his forts).

By 1943, with the higher morale (and more supply), I reckon I can push a lot of rifle divisions to 3 cv and line rifle corps to 10-12. At that stage I think I can start to exert pressure on multiple points. Hopefully, I can start to present the historical dilemma to the Germans, if they concentrate to really lash back, I can exploit the gaps, if they remain dispersed, they will struggle to do much more than hang onto increasingly fraying defensive lines.
jwolf
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RE: T76 27 November – 2 December

Post by jwolf »

By 1943, with the higher morale (and more supply), I reckon I can push a lot of rifle divisions to 3 cv and line rifle corps to 10-12. At that stage I think I can start to exert pressure on multiple points. Hopefully, I can start to present the historical dilemma to the Germans, if they concentrate to really lash back, I can exploit the gaps, if they remain dispersed, they will struggle to do much more than hang onto increasingly fraying defensive lines.

I think you are right -- but it will take time, maybe the entire 1943 summer campaign season. Of course your job would be easier if SigUp's forces suffered a defeat similar to the historical one at Kursk, but I suspect that SigUp's strategic management is better than Hitler's. [;)]

That one battle with AFV losses 100-0 must have been humiliating. You have proven, however, that you can crack a fortified line. The question is if you can keep up the pressure (not yet, but soon) faster than he can rebuild the forts.

Good luck with what looks like a brutal winter campaign.
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