ORIGINAL: obvert
Yes, it does!! Consider the numbers.
I can lose up to 1,000 supply points a day from 300-400 2E hitting the base.
This is the basic number I disagree with. He won't get 300-400 bombers per day over Chungking, and if you have supply for AA they won't do that kind of damage. At least in my experience playing stock. It depends on where you have placed your limited Chinese AA assets too. If the garrison is big enough to defend the city a huge amount of your available supply is stored inside your LCUs where it can't be bombed. As production dwindles this becomes even more the case. It's produced and it's absorbed the next turn. That doesn't get you the Level 7 of course, but it does prevent him from burning all your supplies.
CAP costs 1/3 of a supply point per plane per day. If you fly 150 planes that's more than 10 supply/day.
And you can--I think without checking later-war extended ranges for your models (I don't have any yet)--fly out to India for replacements, but you leave the damaged behind to be bombed. And he's going to bomb the AF and not Ground if he wants to burn supply.
I cannot lose that much from replacing 1E fighters at 12 supply per airframe. It costs less than 10 supply a day to fly the actual CAP. So if I replace 10 airframes a day that's 120 supply. That's a lot of airframes and I won't do that every day.
I'd say even if I did replace airframes instead of moving units out to India to do the replacements, then flying them back in, I wouldn't spend more than 100 supply a day, even to run 100-150 fighters on CAP here. That's way better than letting him bomb away, losing the supply from the AA guns and the hits to the field, day after day. When you consider I also get my pilots kills and experience and he loses a bunch of his, it's a no brainer.[:)]
OK. I'll shut up and see how you do. I have nightmares about the VP numbers myself.
I love the comments. Always good to hear your thoughts.
He has gotten 300-400 over other bases. Just working from that assumption.
Yes, you're right on numbers. I was using what I'd figured out per group before. Thanks.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
ORIGINAL: obvert
Yes, it does!! Consider the numbers.
I can lose up to 1,000 supply points a day from 300-400 2E hitting the base.
This is the basic number I disagree with. He won't get 300-400 bombers per day over Chungking, and if you have supply for AA they won't do that kind of damage. At least in my experience playing stock. It depends on where you have placed your limited Chinese AA assets too. If the garrison is big enough to defend the city a huge amount of your available supply is stored inside your LCUs where it can't be bombed. As production dwindles this becomes even more the case. It's produced and it's absorbed the next turn. That doesn't get you the Level 7 of course, but it does prevent him from burning all your supplies.
CAP costs 1/3 of a supply point per plane per day. If you fly 150 planes that's more than 10 supply/day.
And you can--I think without checking later-war extended ranges for your models (I don't have any yet)--fly out to India for replacements, but you leave the damaged behind to be bombed. And he's going to bomb the AF and not Ground if he wants to burn supply.
I cannot lose that much from replacing 1E fighters at 12 supply per airframe. It costs less than 10 supply a day to fly the actual CAP. So if I replace 10 airframes a day that's 120 supply. That's a lot of airframes and I won't do that every day.
I'd say even if I did replace airframes instead of moving units out to India to do the replacements, then flying them back in, I wouldn't spend more than 100 supply a day, even to run 100-150 fighters on CAP here. That's way better than letting him bomb away, losing the supply from the AA guns and the hits to the field, day after day. When you consider I also get my pilots kills and experience and he loses a bunch of his, it's a no brainer.[:)]
OK. I'll shut up and see how you do. I have nightmares about the VP numbers myself.
3-400 bombers is not outside the realm of possibility... on March 25, 325 of my bombers (plus my strafers) bombed Chungking. I use 20% rest, so the total bombers in the units is right around 400.
Also, a subtle point - the reason I'm ground bombing is as much to keep organic supply low in the units as it is to disable some troops. Maybe even more so. Once the base stockpile of supply is at or near 0, there's no point in bombing the airfield.
I don't think you stand much of a chance of getting all the way to Manchuria based on an air bridge from Kashgar alone - not even with the (meager) supply generation from Urumchi.
Well, gotta think big!
I am imagining this with an assist from supply finally coming from another source, like a landing along the Chinese coast that can link to the troops. Sometime in early 45. Basically this gives a possibility for Chinese troops to still be involved later if he keeps China cut off to the South, or that's the idea.
You will get a lot of transport aircraft soon. Unless you are planning para assaults they can all go to the air bridge. Once you get the Commando you can haul in some small arty and AA guns.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
I don't think you stand much of a chance of getting all the way to Manchuria based on an air bridge from Kashgar alone - not even with the (meager) supply generation from Urumchi.
Well, gotta think big!
I am imagining this with an assist from supply finally coming from another source, like a landing along the Chinese coast that can link to the troops. Sometime in early 45. Basically this gives a possibility for Chinese troops to still be involved later if he keeps China cut off to the South, or that's the idea.
You will get a lot of transport aircraft soon. Unless you are planning para assaults they can all go to the air bridge. Once you get the Commando you can haul in some small arty and AA guns.
Already i have more than the airfields can support in range. I'll be building fast and furiously for the next few weeks. [:)]
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
ORIGINAL: obvert
Yes, it does!! Consider the numbers.
I can lose up to 1,000 supply points a day from 300-400 2E hitting the base.
This is the basic number I disagree with. He won't get 300-400 bombers per day over Chungking, and if you have supply for AA they won't do that kind of damage. At least in my experience playing stock. It depends on where you have placed your limited Chinese AA assets too. If the garrison is big enough to defend the city a huge amount of your available supply is stored inside your LCUs where it can't be bombed. As production dwindles this becomes even more the case. It's produced and it's absorbed the next turn. That doesn't get you the Level 7 of course, but it does prevent him from burning all your supplies.
CAP costs 1/3 of a supply point per plane per day. If you fly 150 planes that's more than 10 supply/day.
And you can--I think without checking later-war extended ranges for your models (I don't have any yet)--fly out to India for replacements, but you leave the damaged behind to be bombed. And he's going to bomb the AF and not Ground if he wants to burn supply.
I cannot lose that much from replacing 1E fighters at 12 supply per airframe. It costs less than 10 supply a day to fly the actual CAP. So if I replace 10 airframes a day that's 120 supply. That's a lot of airframes and I won't do that every day.
I'd say even if I did replace airframes instead of moving units out to India to do the replacements, then flying them back in, I wouldn't spend more than 100 supply a day, even to run 100-150 fighters on CAP here. That's way better than letting him bomb away, losing the supply from the AA guns and the hits to the field, day after day. When you consider I also get my pilots kills and experience and he loses a bunch of his, it's a no brainer.[:)]
OK. I'll shut up and see how you do. I have nightmares about the VP numbers myself.
3-400 bombers is not outside the realm of possibility... on March 25, 325 of my bombers (plus my strafers) bombed Chungking. I use 20% rest, so the total bombers in the units is right around 400.
Also, a subtle point - the reason I'm ground bombing is as much to keep organic supply low in the units as it is to disable some troops. Maybe even more so. Once the base stockpile of supply is at or near 0, there's no point in bombing the airfield.
I'l count them on the next big set of strikes. i have before and it did reach 400 a few days.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
Stacking limits devastate supply in a besieged and heavily over stacked base. See my AAR for some info about that in Babes in Chungking.
I had not considered SLs. I don't play with them. That they're problematic in China for the Allies has been discussed elsewhere. But you make a good point. Even more support for, as the (supposed) Inuit saying goes: "the best place to store food is in the body." The best place for supply is inside LCUs.
3-400 bombers is not outside the realm of possibility... on March 25, 325 of my bombers (plus my strafers) bombed Chungking. I use 20% rest, so the total bombers in the units is right around 400.
You CAN get 300 up, but daily? And 400? Without the bases GJ doesn't have and you do? I track your numbers and they surge. Some days up to 30% more. Might also be weather. But 400/day for a year I don't see.
Also, a subtle point - the reason I'm ground bombing is as much to keep organic supply low in the units as it is to disable some troops. Maybe even more so. Once the base stockpile of supply is at or near 0, there's no point in bombing the airfield.
Chungking in our game is functionally different than here. Obvert has LI/HI capability; I don't. He has open hex sides; I don't. He has SLs; I don't. As for keeping organic supply low . . . ummm, OK. That doesn't mean you should bomb the AF though. Please don't. [:)]
Stacking limits devastate supply in a besieged and heavily over stacked base. See my AAR for some info about that in Babes in Chungking.
I had not considered SLs. I don't play with them. That they're problematic in China for the Allies has been discussed elsewhere. But you make a good point. Even more support for, as the (supposed) Inuit saying goes: "the best place to store food is in the body." The best place for supply is inside LCUs.
The SL in China are one of the main reasons the game is so tough there for the Japanese in ours. It's really a benefit to the Allies if you plan and don't get caught too often with your pants down and a hex at more than 15-20% over the limits. It also means the off road hexes are tough nuts, and why the hex in front of Chikhiang lasted for three months of solid IJA pressure.
I planned for Chungking to have a full complement of the best Chinese units on the map, a bunch of base forces with AA guns and all of the stand alone AA units. All of he decent arty units, which are few. Nearby I've got 3000AV of other experienced and rested Chinese Corps that can move in to replace worn units wince he attacks. That is most likely why he's now trying to move to cut the eastern road toward Kweiyang. it's not going well with two negative DAs and almost 400 disabled infantry squads for the Japanese and only about 100 for the Chinese.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
[font="Times New Roman"]April 27 - 28, 1943[/font]
[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]INDIA: [/font] The DA at Dambulla wil go tomorrow.
[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]CENT PAC: [/font] Nauru is getting supply and base forces. A PBY group moves in to get deeper search here.
[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]SW PAC: [/font] I'll land at Buna and Oro Bay on the 29th.
[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]CHINA: [/font] Full frontal Tojo assault on Chungking on the 27th. Looks like all he's got here. Yet, somehow, the P-40K groups fight them off for a very positive result. On the day we lose 28 planes for 38 in China, mostly of Tojo IIc.I'll now fly in Hellcats. As with the group in the SW PAC area, I want experience and kills for these guys to get them equal to an IJN CV group by the time they may be needed. They'll only be used in defense, so most pilots should be saved.
Most bombing anywhere near the CAPed bases has stopped, but 87 bombers still hit other targets in China on the 27th and 93 on the28th .
[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]OZ:[/font] Once Buna is in Allies hands I'll get fast transports ready to move into the Gulf of Carpenteria to get troops to Grote Eylandt and Gove.
[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]SIGINT:[/font] Something is planning for Wenchow!
[font="Trebuchet MS"]70th Division is planning for an attack on Wenchow.[/font]
[font="Trebuchet MS"]-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR April 27, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Chungking , at 76,45
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
Raid spotted at 14 NM, estimated altitude 29,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 37
Allied aircraft
P-40K Warhawk x 95
Japanese aircraft losses Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 7 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses P-40K Warhawk: 6 destroyed
Aircraft Attacking:
18 x Ki-44-IIc Tojo sweeping at 25000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Chungking , at 76,45
Weather in hex: Heavy cloud
Raid spotted at 43 NM, estimated altitude 30,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 38
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 10
Allied aircraft
P-40K Warhawk x 78
Japanese aircraft losses Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed
Assaulting units:
1st Tank Division
3rd Division
12th Army
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
12th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment
5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
Defending units:
37th Chinese Corps
2nd Chinese Corps
84th Chinese Corps
99th Chinese Corps
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/font] [font="Trebuchet MS"]Notice the stream of units leaving the Chungking area and heading for Western OZ. A long journey. The other idea is that if they starve I think I remember they don't count again me in VPs, right? [/font]
Attachments
china2.jpg (718.61 KiB) Viewed 240 times
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
3-400 bombers is not outside the realm of possibility... on March 25, 325 of my bombers (plus my strafers) bombed Chungking. I use 20% rest, so the total bombers in the units is right around 400.
You CAN get 300 up, but daily? And 400? Without the bases GJ doesn't have and you do? I track your numbers and they surge. Some days up to 30% more. Might also be weather. But 400/day for a year I don't see.
Also, a subtle point - the reason I'm ground bombing is as much to keep organic supply low in the units as it is to disable some troops. Maybe even more so. Once the base stockpile of supply is at or near 0, there's no point in bombing the airfield.
Chungking in our game is functionally different than here. Obvert has LI/HI capability; I don't. He has open hex sides; I don't. He has SLs; I don't. As for keeping organic supply low . . . ummm, OK. That doesn't mean you should bomb the AF though. Please don't. [:)]
Yes, that 420/day filters into units if I don't bomb the airfield, but I've noticed through my multitude of attacks in our game and against the AI that bombing the troops helps me more on the attacks.
It's definitely weather on the surges. It's been winter for us lately, and I've had days where only 20 flew, or none, despite 90+ Morale and correct settings. As for GJ's airfields... no, he doesn't have as many. But can't Kweiyang go to level 9? Even if only Level 8, that's still a huge bomber base... and then there's Chihkiang, and Kunming, and I know GJ has those also. Even Changsha is within normal flight range for Helens/Sallys.
Stacking limits devastate supply in a besieged and heavily over stacked base. See my AAR for some info about that in Babes in Chungking.
I had not considered SLs. I don't play with them. That they're problematic in China for the Allies has been discussed elsewhere. But you make a good point. Even more support for, as the (supposed) Inuit saying goes: "the best place to store food is in the body." The best place for supply is inside LCUs.
The SL in China are one of the main reasons the game is so tough there for the Japanese in ours. It's really a benefit to the Allies if you plan and don't get caught too often with your pants down and a hex at more than 15-20% over the limits. It also means the off road hexes are tough nuts, and why the hex in front of Chikhiang lasted for three months of solid IJA pressure.
I planned for Chungking to have a full complement of the best Chinese units on the map, a bunch of base forces with AA guns and all of the stand alone AA units. All of he decent arty units, which are few. Nearby I've got 3000AV of other experienced and rested Chinese Corps that can move in to replace worn units wince he attacks. That is most likely why he's now trying to move to cut the eastern road toward Kweiyang. it's not going well with two negative DAs and almost 400 disabled infantry squads for the Japanese and only about 100 for the Chinese.
The one thing about SL in a game is that the Japanese player "has" to move into India to cut off the flow of supply to China. In order to defeat Chinese stacks with SL they have to be very low on supply. If the supply is not cut then you won't move those units.
[font="Times New Roman"]April 29 - 30, 1943[/font]
[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]INDIA: [/font] At Dambulla mixed Allied untis DA and push the Japanese back with minor losses. On to Trincomalee.
[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]CENT PAC: [/font] Units are loading for Mili. I have no air support for this op other than what Makin can supply with LR CAP. Could be dicey, so it may be suspended or cancelled at any sign of trouble.
[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]SW PAC: [/font] The landing at Oro Bay and Buna goes well and on the 30th the US Cavalry pushes a small 15AV naval guard unit out of Buna. Engineers are on the way. [8D]
[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]CHINA: [/font] Wow. All three bigger Tojo groups cooperated and arrived with over 120 fighters at the same time over Chungking on the 29th. [X(] I would have thought this would overwhelm my CAP of almost 80 planes, but we again came out ahead. The pilot disparity I'd hoped to achieve may in fact be seeing results already, which I didn't expect. They have been sweeping very regularly, and losing a lot of airframes regularly, so morale and fatigue could be factors as well as airframe damage and fatigue. Our fighters and pilots are in good shape, with high morale, fatigue in the teens and growing kill counts. Again we lose only 4 pilots KIA on the day with another 6 WIA (total globally). Near Paoshan the tank army again suffers a negative DA against the ragtag Chinese units trying to delay their move into Paoshan.
The Japanese bomber count is 90 for the 29th (against the units near Paoshan) and 69 for the 30th (against a stranded Corps near Pakhoi). Supply fills units at Sian again and Wenchow has the highest supply count in over a year at 5500+. [:)]
[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]OZ:[/font] Cue is in Allied hands and an armor unit is now on the way to Meekathera.
[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]SIGINT:[/font] This is actually nice to see. Paoshan is doomed eventually, but this could mean a delay having to reprep for Chungking after that battle finishes. Or maybe he'll give it a try without the HQ prep, which is also good for us.
Two more divisions bought out for island defenses.
[font="Trebuchet MS"]China Expeditionary Army is planning for an attack on Paoshan.
25/53rd Division is loaded on a Husimi Cargo class xAK moving to Truk.
36/116th Division is loaded on a Japanese xAK moving to Saipan.[/font]
[font="Trebuchet MS"]-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR April 29, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Chungking , at 76,45
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 26,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 123
Allied aircraft
P-40K Warhawk x 43
F6F-3 Hellcat x 34
Japanese aircraft losses Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 8 destroyed
Assaulting units:
18th Tank Regiment
Guards Tank Division
20th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
13th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
23rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
8th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
Defending units:
49th Chinese Division
5th New Chinese Corps
3rd Chinese Cavalry Corps
10th Chinese Corps
55th Prov Chinese Division
49th Chinese Corps
13th Chinese Base Force
80th Chinese Corps
5th Group Army
62nd Chinese Corps
10th Construction Regiment
34th Chinese Corps
Lusu War Area
33rd Base Group
72nd Chinese Corps
11th Group Army
32nd Chinese Corps
56th Chinese Corps
16th Chinese Base Force
Assaulting units:
159th(Sep) Infantry Regiment
102nd(Sep) Infantry Regiment
46th Indian Brigade
29th British Brigade
158th(Sep) Infantry Regiment
111th LRP Brigade
188th Field Artillery Battalion
Defending units:
10th Garrison Unit
11th Garrison Unit
22nd Special Base Force
36th JAAF AF Bn
3rd Provisional Base Force
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR April 30, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Dambulla (30,47)
Allied Deliberate attack
Attacking force 17133 troops, 200 guns, 117 vehicles, Assault Value = 654
Defending force 4464 troops, 28 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 97
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/font] [font="Trebuchet MS"]Almost a 3:1 ratio against some of his best air groups, and without even the advantage of radar at the base. [&o][:)][/font]
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airlosses30.jpg (969.91 KiB) Viewed 240 times
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
[font="Times New Roman"]The Air War in China[/font]
Here is a map showing airfield sizes in China now. What jumps at me right away is that Nick's big airfields in range of Chungking for his Tojos are not on the rail lines. Kweiyang and Chikhiang are thus becoming potentially vulnerable as we inch closer in India. Ledo is only 15 hexes from Kweiyang, easy range for a B-24. Chikhiang is still in the normal zone for the RAF LR Liberator II and other B-24D at extended range.
On top of this there is enough supply that it might be useful to actually hit them from Chungking with about 60 B-25D1. That could cause a very bad day if there is not sufficient flak and if the CAP is down or even minimal.
As it is we're running a consistent average of 2:1 kills over Chungking and I would estimate a much higher ratio of expert pilot attrition (based on decreasingly effective Japanese results).
For the bombers Hankow and Canton are the only level 9 bases, 11 and 14 hexes away respectively. This means he is likely using Henyang and Kweilin for his Sallys to get the full bomb load. That could limit his total strike size to Chungking right now thinking about airfield limits.
Paoshan is now in the supply positive realm with all units fully supplied. I will continue to ramp up flights here and now begin flying to the units being sieged by the IJA tanks one hex away, who are nearly out of supply now. Nick is showing movement to Paoshan from the South, but has been for much longer than needed to cross, so this is either a feint or he resets them periodically to sync with his expected move by the tanks into the city that is being delayed.
Chungking has 3400AV of the best remaining Chinese Corps, and one more will move in to push the totals to around 3700AV. The HQs all have the best that can be bought for China, so I'm hoping for some initially good results here with the 6 forts and x2 terrain bonus, especially if he DAs before he can bomb the troops.
If someone had told me at the beginning I'd still have Chinese oil, still have Chungking with 18k supply and 6 forts, still have open hex sides around it and one mountain base holding out in mid 43, I would have been more than pleased. This is a really positive situation for the Allies, and it continues to cost Japan supplies, troops and airframes (HI) to fight here. I'll do everything I can to keep that going. [:)]
Attachments
Chinaairfields.jpg (827.97 KiB) Viewed 240 times
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
The one thing about SL in a game is that the Japanese player "has" to move into India to cut off the flow of supply to China. In order to defeat Chinese stacks with SL they have to be very low on supply. If the supply is not cut then you won't move those units.
I disagree here. A dictionary will drive a nail, but it's the wrong tool. Cutting off Chinese supply is immensely easier from the China side. Take Tsuyung and it's pretty much stoppered. India takes an opposed landing, importing air power, fighting Brit, Aussies, and Indian troops which have armor and lots of supply, and a slog all the way north to the cut-off. That's after Japan deals with Rangoon, so months into the war. China is much easier with bad Chinese troops, air power galore already in theater, tanks, and supply at their backs.
The one thing about SL in a game is that the Japanese player "has" to move into India to cut off the flow of supply to China. In order to defeat Chinese stacks with SL they have to be very low on supply. If the supply is not cut then you won't move those units.
I disagree here. A dictionary will drive a nail, but it's the wrong tool. Cutting off Chinese supply is immensely easier from the China side. Take Tsuyung and it's pretty much stoppered. India takes an opposed landing, importing air power, fighting Brit, Aussies, and Indian troops which have armor and lots of supply, and a slog all the way north to the cut-off. That's after Japan deals with Rangoon, so months into the war. China is much easier with bad Chinese troops, air power galore already in theater, tanks, and supply at their backs.
I could be wrong, but I think crsutton is referring to an air bridge, much like what Mr Kane has used successfully, from Ledo and other Indian bases in range of Chengtu and the central plains. I would say it would have been much easier to defend in China had I been able to fly a few hundred supply a day even into Chengtu. Nick also seems to want to keep me from doing that as he's camped a bunch of the IJA in far NE India around Dimapur.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
[font="Times New Roman"]SW PAC[/font]
Hers is a pic of the situation in the South Pacific. Buna and Oro Bay along with Milne Bay will become the bases to support a landing at PM. I can effectively limit any CV intervention once they're built up enough to support a decent CAP. I've begun moving CV/CVE along with the newly upgraded APA/AKA to Brisbane to load up for PM. It'll be about two weeks before the invasion, so that should be enough time for some fields and AS to be ready at Buna and Oro Bay.
In the meantime I'll work on Horn Island with the 4Es and attempt some small landings on the West side of the Gulf of Carpentaria to further extend early warning search and give him something else to think about. [:)]
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Screenshot..14.29.20.jpg (825.11 KiB) Viewed 240 times
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
Horn Island - I took the base, but I needed to devote some attention to Merauke (LRCAP over Horn from here). Build up Portland Roads, put a few AE/AKEs in maxed out base, and use those old, slow BBs to crush that base with LRCAP overhead. Rinse, Repeat!! [:D]
Just back from a trip through Search looking at stacking limits threads of yore. Seems even to recent days there is disagreement on what exactly the effects are of over-stacking. Some argue vociferously that there is an added disruption/morale hit over time, others claim the DBB team stated with great certainty that there is ONLY the supply usage hit, which is not linear, seen in the stock game on non-unlimited stacking islands. Does this matter re Chungking? Some.
But assume it's just increased supply burn. Chungking is STILL a unique case under the game design due to the resurrection rule. (Chengtu's status in the manual is unclear to me. While it is the second tier entry city if Chungking falls, the manual is not explicit if resurrection rule transfers to Chengtu, or if only regularly-scheduled OOB arrivals do.)
About a year ago there was a long thread, which Symon participated in, arguing that the resurrection rule shouldn't make any difference. The assumption was a stock Chungking which was massively over-stacked would be at zero supply anyway, so what's the diff? I believe crsutton was the lone voice arguing against that theory. Well, let me join him.
In my stock game I have over 420,000 troops in Chungking. All hex sides are closed and have been for about a year. Something less than 10 major attacks have occurred there. And there is a lot of supply present in the LCUs in garrison. I can't say how much for OPSEC, but non-trivial amounts. With SLs there would be zero. And the base would have fallen by now. Lokasenna knows or suspects this from the combat results he's seen. I just don't want to serve him exact numbers.
Without taking away from your very good play in China, GJ has let you off the mat. It's odd too, as the thread I read was his, started in his game with Q-Ball when he was on the other side. He's thought about Chungking sieges a lot. But here he screwed the pooch. Your screen shot shows how badly he failed to build the needed AFs to do Chungking well. At this point, given you have open hexsides, supply, and can operate a 150-plane CAP in mid-China (!!!) with 3rd gen fighters, he should give up on Chungking, withdraw to a defense line, and wait for you. SLs do work well in the bush, forcing a maneuver war. He can use that for a time. The one place they're crippling is Chungking.
But here I'll go out on a limb and say something outrageous. (The forum is way too calm these days.)
In an SL game it is strategic malpractice to invade India.
In a non-SL game it's pretty dumb too, unless there is an all-out drive for auto-victory. For all the reasons often beaten about. Distance, size, RR network, delay getting there, diversion of effort, inability to hold it past mid-war at best, etc, etc.
But in an SL game, the ROI (Alfred's term, well considered) of India versus China is terrible. And the main reason is that ole resurrection rule. It only exists in ONE city in the game. In stock it works well to balance the Allies' supply woes in China. Destroyed LCUs come back weak, but come back "free." It allows Chungking, a really massive VP pool, to be defended. At least for a while.
But with SLs, if Japan plays properly, it is a hammer. Anyone playing Japan in an SL game would be wise to undertake some form of the following (N.B. this assumes INSTANT execution of the strategy, from 12/8/41. NO dilly-dallying):
1. Form IJA armor into a spearhead. Aim it at Chungking. Follow with infantry. Leave the arty behind.
2. Form a combined-arms spearhead in the SE and move aggressively west, taking the RR. The target is a stopper at Tsuyung.
3. Destroy the Chinese air force. This takes a month, tops. They're flying biplanes. Nates can even work.
4. Leave Sian and Changsha alone. They're for later. Chungking is the target.
5. Run xAKL supplies up the river and establish a large supply node at Wuchang. The AI does this every game. Maybe Japan players do it, but I see few mention it.
6. Take an AF in bombing range of Chungking. Proceed to burn down its industry. This should take at most six weeks. During this time the armored spearhead, whose function is hexside control, moves to Chungking. Probably generally west and then SE from Kienko. Alternatively NE from Kwieyang. Just get there. The Chinese have no AT weapons to speak of. Routing casualties will be massive.
7. Move non-AV LCUs out of the M. Garrison and into the SE sector. Proceed to mop up lone Chinese LCUs and set them into the resurrection queue. Begin this on 12/8/41 as well.
8. Close Chungking's hexsides with armor and air power. The city should be on stored supply plus 420/day organic by now. This is about two months in now. Chinese LCUs should still have terrible leaders, terrible morale, terrible training levels. This step cannot wait until June-Aug. February is the month. As I said, don't dink around at Sian, Lanchow, Changsha. Leave them alone. If Chengtu looks easy, take it. It's very valuable right away. Otherwise wait.
9. Once Chungking is hex isolated with industry destroyed, proceed to drop resurrected LCUs in as fast as possible. Redeploy the tanks to get this done. Get Chungking over the stacking limit and keep increasing it. At this point China becomes "conventional" for a number of months.
10. When Chungking is ripe, when supply is truly at zero and this has had morale and disruption effects, probably toward Oct-Nov 1942, attack it with overwhelming force just as the first auto-vic checks are coming due. The garrison ought to be something like 400,000 men, so there's VPs for that. The city itself is a 2200ish VP swing from both directions.
The keys are not being shy about taking out the industry, and forcing your Japanese self to ignore Sian and Changsha for a time. If those garrisons come out to fight, good, If they squat, let them. Later you can peel them one LCU at a time and send the ghosts to a completely unsupplied Chungking.
The one thing about SL in a game is that the Japanese player "has" to move into India to cut off the flow of supply to China. In order to defeat Chinese stacks with SL they have to be very low on supply. If the supply is not cut then you won't move those units.
I disagree here. A dictionary will drive a nail, but it's the wrong tool. Cutting off Chinese supply is immensely easier from the China side. Take Tsuyung and it's pretty much stoppered. India takes an opposed landing, importing air power, fighting Brit, Aussies, and Indian troops which have armor and lots of supply, and a slog all the way north to the cut-off. That's after Japan deals with Rangoon, so months into the war. China is much easier with bad Chinese troops, air power galore already in theater, tanks, and supply at their backs.
I could be wrong, but I think crsutton is referring to an air bridge, much like what Mr Kane has used successfully, from Ledo and other Indian bases in range of Chengtu and the central plains. I would say it would have been much easier to defend in China had I been able to fly a few hundred supply a day even into Chengtu. Nick also seems to want to keep me from doing that as he's camped a bunch of the IJA in far NE India around Dimapur.
The air bridge helps, but the Allies don't begin to have the transports needed until well into 1942. If Japan plays China correctly Chungking will be gone before air transport can really help.
Just back from a trip through Search looking at stacking limits threads of yore. Seems even to recent days there is disagreement on what exactly the effects are of over-stacking. Some argue vociferously that there is an added disruption/morale hit over time, others claim the DBB team stated with great certainty that there is ONLY the supply usage hit, which is not linear, seen in the stock game on non-unlimited stacking islands. Does this matter re Chungking? Some.
Have not read the rest of your post yet...
You haven't found the latest on that (Alfred probably has a link up his sleeve!), which came about IIRC when Michael checked the code. There is the supply hit, a disruption hit, and a fatigue hit. Don't recall anything else but I am going from memory. The disruption and fatigue hits are not huge, but there. The supply hit has to be managed (when deliberately over stacking). The supply hit can be outright devastating.
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