::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

User avatar
Bullwinkle58
Posts: 11297
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The first blocks don't exist if you... get there first. It can be done. Paratroopers and transports start at or near enough to Formosa to be using them out of Canton by the end of the first week of the war. You can use them from there to take the best Chinese supply lines away from them simply by cutting the rails and roads. A lot of those second string Chinese bases start with nothing in them. Recon them and take the empty ones while you move up to engage the front line of the Chinese. Bring in the armor and arty from Manchuria. By January, Japan should be past Liuchow/Kweilin and marching to Kweiyang. And that's before anything from Manchuria even arrives in this area.

Letting the Chinese get set up in the bush to block all the roads and whatnot is a gift from Japan to the Allies. It should never happen.

Wait, wait. You mean YOU understand the Japan OOB? Impossible!! [:)]
The Moose
User avatar
obvert
Posts: 14051
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:18 am
Location: PDX (and now) London, UK

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: obvert

I'm not saying moving to India as Japan is the 'correct' strategy. I'm simply saying you're wrong about China being so easy you can get to Chungking in 2-3 months. Oh, I get your timeframe. I also get that you don't apparently know the SL map or much about the Japanese OOB.


I stopped reading at the fourth insult.

Have a nice day.

[:D]

You can dish it out, but it's tough when it comes back, eh?

Is this the point where I should add, "Gotcha?"
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
User avatar
Lokasenna
Posts: 9304
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:57 am
Location: Iowan in MD/DC

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: obvert
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

The first blocks don't exist if you... get there first. It can be done. Paratroopers and transports start at or near enough to Formosa to be using them out of Canton by the end of the first week of the war. You can use them from there to take the best Chinese supply lines away from them simply by cutting the rails and roads. A lot of those second string Chinese bases start with nothing in them. Recon them and take the empty ones while you move up to engage the front line of the Chinese. Bring in the armor and arty from Manchuria. By January, Japan should be past Liuchow/Kweilin and marching to Kweiyang. And that's before anything from Manchuria even arrives in this area.

Letting the Chinese get set up in the bush to block all the roads and whatnot is a gift from Japan to the Allies. It should never happen.

This is really funny to me. I actually have played the Japanese side pretty well in China. I actually made almost exactly the moves Bull is advocating and you're supporting. I still didn't get to Chungking in 2-3 months. Either time. I did wreck China and once made a truce so the game could continue, the other time took everything but Paoshan. I had Chungking in early 43.

I know how to do it. I'm simply saying I couldn't do what I did with SL in play and with the DBB air fixes and with PDU-off. I simply could not have gotten to Chungking in 2-3 months.

Nick is a very good payer taking on a hard task with PDU-off and its ridiculous to say he could have done what Bullwinkle is suggesting. he could have done more, sure. He might have gotten Chungking sooner than now. But not in 2-3 months. I think you know that too.

I'm not saying Japan could capture it in 2-3 months. Capturing a defended Chungking is definitely a 1943 endeavour. I'm saying Japan could (and should) have China thoroughly dismantled in 2-3 months. You don't run up against stacking limits when you're using paratroops and armor to eviscerate the Chinese supply lines. And the Chinese can't get to the places you can cut off before you drop paratroops there. They have to walk or pack up and use rails. Japan is literally flying there. And how long does it take to build those forts in the bush? If Japan's letting China establish lines and build forts in the bush... well, exactly that: they're letting China do that. They don't have to.

The reason GJ didn't do that is because he went for India instead. I assume. China is an enormous VP bank and you're going to capture all of the SRA anyway, so the strategic objectives for me on Day 1 of the war as Japan are, in order of priority:

1) Ensure that you take enough of the SRA that the rest will crumble. This means Singapore at a reasonable time (definitely before March, 1942), and be threatening Java around the same time. Once you have Singapore, you have the best base in the entire area and if the Allies try to challenge you in the seas, you'll win.

2) Cut off and strangle China. You want these VPs for later, and the Chinese bases are going to be the hardest on the map for the Allies to take back from you, so they're your most secure base VPs. A lot of the deep Chinese bases are worth a multiplier of 10 for Japan. A few others worth a lot more. To do this, you need to cut supply to the Chinese ASAP. That means cutting the road to Burma and intercepting any air transport. Once you have Neikiang, you can LRCAP Chungking and no more supply is coming in through there. I'm going to stop here - do I really need to spell out the process for strangling China? The biggest key is that you have to move quickly so that the Chinese burn more supply than they generate, and can't build forts. SL or no SL.


GJ simply didn't commit enough here to push through soon enough. That was a choice he made, or equally likely a cost of him doing business in India and SW Australia so early.
User avatar
obvert
Posts: 14051
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:18 am
Location: PDX (and now) London, UK

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by obvert »

I agree. If you look at my AAR from the game with Jocke I state very early that China is my number 1 priority and that it's the one place Japan can make the most use of it's best early asset; a large, experienced army.

I love the para moves, but they don't always work as easily as planned. I did a few against Torsten (Historiker) and he was really good at reacting and getting Chinese units to block and eventually surround the area. He in fact used a non-SL stock game to his advantage by being really good at assessing just how much would hold and for how long, then knowing when to pull back. He is sitting now with 750k (est.) Chinese in Paoshan. But it took a long time to get them there.

Against Jocke China was on it's knees by April-May but I may have gotten Chungking before the end of 42 if the truce wasn't agreed.

I just really like SL and want to advocate that it makes the game more fun because both sides have to work harder and use skill rather than mass to succeed.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
User avatar
pontiouspilot
Posts: 1131
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:09 pm

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by pontiouspilot »

Bull in a China shop: Very interesting post. To me you ask the most important question to come out of this Obvert v. Greyjoy match. I'm not so sure we can judge the wisdom of the India/China dichotomy for another 6 months. I see some tough slogging ahead for our learned friend Mr. Obvert.
User avatar
obvert
Posts: 14051
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:18 am
Location: PDX (and now) London, UK

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

Bull in a China shop: Very interesting post. To me you ask the most important question to come out of this Obvert v. Greyjoy match. I'm not so sure we can judge the wisdom of the India/China dichotomy for another 6 months. I see some tough slogging ahead for our learned friend Mr. Obvert.

So do I. [:)]
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
User avatar
obvert
Posts: 14051
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:18 am
Location: PDX (and now) London, UK

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by obvert »

[font="Times New Roman"]May 1 - 2, 1943[/font]
It's May!! Lots of new stuff arriving and the biggest is the Essex in a few days!! [&o]

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]SUBS: [/font] Peto misses a TK in the DEI.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]INDIA: [/font] I'll paradrop Tezpur and move troops by rail i nudging the next few days. He's not struck anywhere as I've been inching closer, but this is only 4 hexes fro mhos lines. Feeling a little nervous about it.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]SO PAC: [/font] Planing a small commando unit raid on Buka to see what is there and maybe grab the place.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]CHINA: [/font] Another big Tojo strike on the 2nd. Again our guys do well. This is getting scarily consistent, but I am waiting for a hammer to drop and waves of Georges to come flying in after the Tojos. Then I remember he only has one group. It's in Rabaul. PDU-off makes the game much harder to organize for Japan. I have to remember to use this as much as I can, really go to places the good fighters are not. If I was ready for a first big amphib op right now I know exactly where I'd go. [;)]

The Japanese try a DA in the x3 near Kweiyang on the 1st with seemingly less than will maximize the hex. They have only one division, one tank division and 9 arty units, plus an HQ. Maybe that fills a 40k hex? My guys are starting to run lower on supply, but still have some. Until the Japanese get closer to a 1:1 I'll keep these here. I have one of my best units poised in the next hex, a 500AV monster with 50+ experience and full of supply. It'll move in eventually to trade out two smaller worn down Corps.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]OZ:[/font] Meekathera is invested and turns over to the Allied side. Now those bases will be built up in preparation for working on the West coast bases.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]SIGINT:[/font] Uh Oh! This looks like a KB kind of signals intercept. Something between Truk and Ponape. I'll hedge the amphibs for Mili back and extend search.

[font="Trebuchet MS"]Heavy Volume of Radio transmissions detected at 115,112.[/font]

[font="Trebuchet MS"]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR May 1, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 75,47 (near Kweiyang)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 22280 troops, 364 guns, 664 vehicles, Assault Value = 706

Defending force 37400 troops, 58 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1148

Japanese adjusted assault: 216

Allied adjusted defense: 1543

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 7

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
2208 casualties reported
Squads: 14 destroyed, 146 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 29 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 25 disabled


Allied ground losses:
271 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 35 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled

Engineers: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
1st Tank Division
39th Division
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
12th Army
12th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
2nd Chinese Corps
37th Chinese Corps
84th Chinese Corps
99th Chinese Corps

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR May 2, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Chungking , at 76,45

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 29,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 37

Allied aircraft
P-40K Warhawk x 69
F6F-3 Hellcat x 26

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 4 destroyed

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
23 x Ki-44-IIc Tojo sweeping at 25000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Chungking , at 76,45

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 43 NM, estimated altitude 26,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 37

Allied aircraft
P-40K Warhawk x 66
F6F-3 Hellcat x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 6 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40K Warhawk: 4 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed


Aircraft Attacking:
21 x Ki-44-IIc Tojo sweeping at 25000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Chungking , at 76,45

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 39 NM, estimated altitude 26,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 84

Allied aircraft
P-40K Warhawk x 56
F6F-3 Hellcat x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 6 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40K Warhawk: 3 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
41 x Ki-44-IIc Tojo sweeping at 25000 feet
12 x Ki-44-IIc Tojo sweeping at 25000 feet
4 x Ki-44-IIc Tojo sweeping at 25000 feet
4 x Ki-44-IIc Tojo sweeping at 25000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Mili , at 136,121

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 18 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 21

Allied aircraft
P-40B Warhawk x 12
F4F-4 Wildcat x 9
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 4 destroyed

No Allied losses

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 14

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 66,44 (near Paoshan)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 8690 troops, 207 guns, 556 vehicles, Assault Value = 399

Defending force 13270 troops, 52 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 260

Japanese adjusted assault: 280

Allied adjusted defense: 658

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), morale(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
40 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled

Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Allied ground losses:
298 casualties reported
Squads: 19 destroyed, 13 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 5 disabled

Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
18th Tank Regiment
Guards Tank Division
13th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
23rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
20th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
8th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
5th New Chinese Corps
3rd Chinese Cavalry Corps
55th Prov Chinese Division
11th Group Army
80th Chinese Corps
49th Chinese Division
34th Chinese Corps
Lusu War Area
32nd Chinese Corps
56th Chinese Corps
5th Group Army
10th Chinese Corps
62nd Chinese Corps
49th Chinese Corps
13th Chinese Base Force
72nd Chinese Corps
16th Chinese Base Force
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[/font]

Reinforcements: It's May 43!!! This means a few new airframes including the slightly worse version of the already abysmal Wildcat, the FM-1. How did they take two 50cal MG off the pane and the stats for speed, climb and maneuver stay the same?!? [:(][&:]

I worry as all CVE are doomed to using the kittens for the duration. Maybe I can use some replenishment groups on them with Hellcats? I seem to suffer with those a lot, and I remember questions about whether they have some kind of combat penalty? Anyone know?

Image
[font="Trebuchet MS"]The points as they stand now.[/font]
Attachments
Screenshot..14.11.26.jpg
Screenshot..14.11.26.jpg (975.89 KiB) Viewed 267 times
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
mind_messing
Posts: 3394
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:59 am

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: obvert

You also can't be 'armor heavy' this early as Japan. Your tank divisions aren't complete in the beginning and you have to plan to make sure those units are in the same places when the other parts arrive through the first several months of 42 so you can buy them out and bring them to China. So the schedule is off for this reason alone. I'm 'getting the timeframe' and it doesn't work.

I like thought experiments.

IJA tank units as of Dec 7th 1941 - NB: this is a hastily prepared list and may not be absolutely accurate.

We'll ignore the Recon Rgt's, seeing as they combine to form divisions and can be quite handy.

You've two tank regiments in Indochina that can rail up to SW China within a week.
Two tank regiments on Pesacordes and one on Formosa are ready to be sent to China on Dec 7th.
One tank regiment is already loaded on a TF at Samah.

That's six tank regiments ready to be in South-West China by Dec 10th. Roughly two divisions worth.

There are 7 tank regiments in Manchuria, about 4 of which can be bought out on Dec 7th (assuming the inital budget of 500 PP's is spent) and the remaining 3 can be bought out at a rate of about 1 regiment every two days.

On top of that, there are two tank regiments and two armoured car units in Centarl China that can be bought out and shipped to South-West China.

At by the end of December '41, you can have 15 tank regiments and 2 armoured car units deployed in South-Western China, assuming you prioritize PP's towards buying these tank units out.

The impact on the DEI effort shouldn't be noticable. You'd still be keeping the detached Recon Regiments, so you'll still have mobile units that can take weakly held bases quickly. In exchange, you'll be able to have the bulk of Panzerarmee China en-route towards Liuchow/Kweilin by mid December '41 and nearly all of your armour concentrated by January '42.

IJA Paratrooper Units and targets

Units

Yokosuka 1st & 3rd SNLF - Kagi - 24 AV each
1st Raiding Regiment - Kagoshima - 30 AV

Targets
Tuyun - defended by 3 units (30 EXP/Morale) - 96 AV
Kweilin - defended by 1 base force - 28 AV
Kukong - defended by 3 units - 28 AV

Execution

Kweilin and Kuking can be attacked by paratroopers on Dec 7th by the Japanese. With heavy use of bombers from Canton and other bases in South China, there is a good chance of success. This isolates South-West China from the bulk of Chinese troops around Changsha.

Tuyun is a bit more problematic. The 1st Raiding Regiment can be moved to Amoy around Dev 11th/12 by fast transport (plenty of CL/DD heading that way from Japan anyways), so with a bit of effort, you can have all three IJA paratrooper units attacking Tuyun by mid-Dec '41.

One Tuyun falls, the Chinese can't rail troops to set up the roadblocks and the Japanese can fly in troops of their own to keep South-West China isolated.
JocMeister
Posts: 8258
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:03 am
Location: Sweden

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by JocMeister »

As requested Erik! AAR is up and running now. [:)]
Image
User avatar
crsutton
Posts: 9590
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 8:56 pm
Location: Maryland

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: obvert

You also can't be 'armor heavy' this early as Japan. Your tank divisions aren't complete in the beginning and you have to plan to make sure those units are in the same places when the other parts arrive through the first several months of 42 so you can buy them out and bring them to China. So the schedule is off for this reason alone. I'm 'getting the timeframe' and it doesn't work.

I like thought experiments.

IJA tank units as of Dec 7th 1941 - NB: this is a hastily prepared list and may not be absolutely accurate.

We'll ignore the Recon Rgt's, seeing as they combine to form divisions and can be quite handy.

You've two tank regiments in Indochina that can rail up to SW China within a week.
Two tank regiments on Pesacordes and one on Formosa are ready to be sent to China on Dec 7th.
One tank regiment is already loaded on a TF at Samah.

That's six tank regiments ready to be in South-West China by Dec 10th. Roughly two divisions worth.

There are 7 tank regiments in Manchuria, about 4 of which can be bought out on Dec 7th (assuming the inital budget of 500 PP's is spent) and the remaining 3 can be bought out at a rate of about 1 regiment every two days.

On top of that, there are two tank regiments and two armoured car units in Centarl China that can be bought out and shipped to South-West China.

At by the end of December '41, you can have 15 tank regiments and 2 armoured car units deployed in South-Western China, assuming you prioritize PP's towards buying these tank units out.

The impact on the DEI effort shouldn't be noticable. You'd still be keeping the detached Recon Regiments, so you'll still have mobile units that can take weakly held bases quickly. In exchange, you'll be able to have the bulk of Panzerarmee China en-route towards Liuchow/Kweilin by mid December '41 and nearly all of your armour concentrated by January '42.


Which really only highlights the dilemma of the Chinese/India gambit. If, as stated, (and of course I am right in this matter [;)] ) that with SL in effect then Japan at least has to invade India far enough to cut the air bridge to China, then where will Japanese tanks be needed the most? Send them all to China and you are setting up a disaster in India. As an Allied player I think that the best counter to an Indian invasion it to move every available tank unit to India. There is no better place to fight with Allied tanks than in the open terrain of India. By 8/42 even with the weak Indian tank brigades, the Allies can have tank parity there and by 10/42 as the Indian units start to flesh out with good medium tanks even Japanese armor divisions in India start to become pretty brittle. In my opinion to have a decent chance of taking substantial terrain in India and then holding it long enough to finish the work in China, the Japanese player needs to commit the bulk of his mobile units there. Then what is left over for China? Believe me, I would drool at the opportunities in India if my opponent invaded without a serious tank commitment.
I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg
User avatar
Lokasenna
Posts: 9304
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:57 am
Location: Iowan in MD/DC

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: obvert

You also can't be 'armor heavy' this early as Japan. Your tank divisions aren't complete in the beginning and you have to plan to make sure those units are in the same places when the other parts arrive through the first several months of 42 so you can buy them out and bring them to China. So the schedule is off for this reason alone. I'm 'getting the timeframe' and it doesn't work.

I like thought experiments.

IJA tank units as of Dec 7th 1941 - NB: this is a hastily prepared list and may not be absolutely accurate.

We'll ignore the Recon Rgt's, seeing as they combine to form divisions and can be quite handy.

You've two tank regiments in Indochina that can rail up to SW China within a week.
Two tank regiments on Pesacordes and one on Formosa are ready to be sent to China on Dec 7th.
One tank regiment is already loaded on a TF at Samah.

That's six tank regiments ready to be in South-West China by Dec 10th. Roughly two divisions worth.

There are 7 tank regiments in Manchuria, about 4 of which can be bought out on Dec 7th (assuming the inital budget of 500 PP's is spent) and the remaining 3 can be bought out at a rate of about 1 regiment every two days.

On top of that, there are two tank regiments and two armoured car units in Centarl China that can be bought out and shipped to South-West China.

At by the end of December '41, you can have 15 tank regiments and 2 armoured car units deployed in South-Western China, assuming you prioritize PP's towards buying these tank units out.

The impact on the DEI effort shouldn't be noticable. You'd still be keeping the detached Recon Regiments, so you'll still have mobile units that can take weakly held bases quickly. In exchange, you'll be able to have the bulk of Panzerarmee China en-route towards Liuchow/Kweilin by mid December '41 and nearly all of your armour concentrated by January '42.


Which really only highlights the dilemma of the Chinese/India gambit. If, as stated, (and of course I am right in this matter [;)] ) that with SL in effect then Japan at least has to invade India far enough to cut the air bridge to China, then where will Japanese tanks be needed the most? Send them all to China and you are setting up a disaster in India. As an Allied player I think that the best counter to an Indian invasion it to move every available tank unit to India. There is no better place to fight with Allied tanks than in the open terrain of India. By 8/42 even with the weak Indian tank brigades, the Allies can have tank parity there and by 10/42 as the Indian units start to flesh out with good medium tanks even Japanese armor divisions in India start to become pretty brittle. In my opinion to have a decent chance of taking substantial terrain in India and then holding it long enough to finish the work in China, the Japanese player needs to commit the bulk of his mobile units there. Then what is left over for China? Believe me, I would drool at the opportunities in India if my opponent invaded without a serious tank commitment.

I think it just highlights that invading India is unnecessary and far too risky. You can't get supply to flow up for a land invasion from Rangoon, which means you need ships. And what does it get you, anyway? Time? You get that simply from the lack of any real Commonwealth OOB expansion. If you could guarantee that you'd capture a stockpile of fuel/supplies somewhere, then that would be worth it... but that's a crapshoot.

Bullwinkle has Ledo and he's flying stuff out of there, but he can't reach anything I care about (...yet...and by the time he'd be able to, he'd be able to take Ledo back anyway). And because I have all of the airbases near Chungking, he can't fly in any supply without losing the planes. I know he's dropping supplies somewhere (ops losses), but it's not Chungking and that's all I care about. You don't need to invade India to cripple or kill China, and the opportunity cost of going to India is a bunch of territory in the Pacific, where it does matter.


Sorry, that's slightly OT/tangential.
User avatar
paullus99
Posts: 1671
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2002 10:00 am

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by paullus99 »

I have yet to see an invasion of India that panned out for the JFBs - sure, it buys a little time, but at the end of the day, it doesn't sink carriers & it doesn't prevent the US Navy was exerting massive force in the Pacific....of course, it is different for a PDU off vs. on game, but at the end of the day, the results seem to be exactly the same.
Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...
User avatar
castor troy
Posts: 14331
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:17 am
Location: Austria

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: paullus99

I have yet to see an invasion of India that panned out for the JFBs - sure, it buys a little time, but at the end of the day, it doesn't sink carriers & it doesn't prevent the US Navy was exerting massive force in the Pacific....of course, it is different for a PDU off vs. on game, but at the end of the day, the results seem to be exactly the same.


all my IJ invasions of India paid off, totally. My last campaign resulted in over 4000 Allied av destroyed in India in mid 42. Try to mount an offensive into Burma as the Allied after this. Total loss were a couple of hundred aircraft at best, no units and the supply needed to do so was by far not as much as I captured, let alone what I could produce afterwards in the Calcutta area, plus the oil from the East. Pity the game ended right after this due to personal reasons of my opponent.

See my last AAR, wouldn't say the invasion wasn't worth it. Just one of many of my India invasions in all the years
User avatar
obvert
Posts: 14051
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:18 am
Location: PDX (and now) London, UK

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

As requested Erik! AAR is up and running now. [:)]

Nice! I'll be over in a minute! [8D]
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
User avatar
obvert
Posts: 14051
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:18 am
Location: PDX (and now) London, UK

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: paullus99

I have yet to see an invasion of India that panned out for the JFBs - sure, it buys a little time, but at the end of the day, it doesn't sink carriers & it doesn't prevent the US Navy was exerting massive force in the Pacific....of course, it is different for a PDU off vs. on game, but at the end of the day, the results seem to be exactly the same.


all my IJ invasions of India paid off, totally. My last campaign resulted in over 4000 Allied av destroyed in India in mid 42. Try to mount an offensive into Burma as the Allied after this. Total loss were a couple of hundred aircraft at best, no units and the supply needed to do so was by far not as much as I captured, let alone what I could produce afterwards in the Calcutta area, plus the oil from the East. Pity the game ended right after this due to personal reasons of my opponent.

See my last AAR, wouldn't say the invasion wasn't worth it. Just one of many of my India invasions in all the years

I've seen a few like this. It would have happened to me without good advice from the AAR contributors and some knowledge f the past games that have resulted in the IJA running through India and almost getting it all. The radar game is for most in my mind, but Nick was a bit less experienced then than radar. until the end!

Didn't PzB also do well in India? And Cribtop made a very successful NE India invasion in a recent game. Getting a bunch of Allied commenwealth units off the board is a good second objective in India even if the first of securing more resources doesn't pay off as a positive.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
JocMeister
Posts: 8258
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:03 am
Location: Sweden

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by JocMeister »

I think PzB is the only one who has successfully taken all of India. [:)]
Image
User avatar
ny59giants
Posts: 9902
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:02 pm

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by ny59giants »

Link to Jocke's AAR, please??
[center]Image[/center]
User avatar
Lokasenna
Posts: 9304
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:57 am
Location: Iowan in MD/DC

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: paullus99

I have yet to see an invasion of India that panned out for the JFBs - sure, it buys a little time, but at the end of the day, it doesn't sink carriers & it doesn't prevent the US Navy was exerting massive force in the Pacific....of course, it is different for a PDU off vs. on game, but at the end of the day, the results seem to be exactly the same.


all my IJ invasions of India paid off, totally. My last campaign resulted in over 4000 Allied av destroyed in India in mid 42. Try to mount an offensive into Burma as the Allied after this. Total loss were a couple of hundred aircraft at best, no units and the supply needed to do so was by far not as much as I captured, let alone what I could produce afterwards in the Calcutta area, plus the oil from the East. Pity the game ended right after this due to personal reasons of my opponent.

See my last AAR, wouldn't say the invasion wasn't worth it. Just one of many of my India invasions in all the years

I've seen a few like this. It would have happened to me without good advice from the AAR contributors and some knowledge f the past games that have resulted in the IJA running through India and almost getting it all. The radar game is for most in my mind, but Nick was a bit less experienced then than radar. until the end!

Didn't PzB also do well in India? And Cribtop made a very successful NE India invasion in a recent game. Getting a bunch of Allied commenwealth units off the board is a good second objective in India even if the first of securing more resources doesn't pay off as a positive.

I can get behind that desire, but it depends so much on your opponent's dispositions.
User avatar
obvert
Posts: 14051
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:18 am
Location: PDX (and now) London, UK

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Link to Jocke's AAR, please??

Here it is! The sheep lives!

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3790409&mpage=1&key=&#3790765
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
User avatar
obvert
Posts: 14051
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:18 am
Location: PDX (and now) London, UK

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: castor troy





all my IJ invasions of India paid off, totally. My last campaign resulted in over 4000 Allied av destroyed in India in mid 42. Try to mount an offensive into Burma as the Allied after this. Total loss were a couple of hundred aircraft at best, no units and the supply needed to do so was by far not as much as I captured, let alone what I could produce afterwards in the Calcutta area, plus the oil from the East. Pity the game ended right after this due to personal reasons of my opponent.

See my last AAR, wouldn't say the invasion wasn't worth it. Just one of many of my India invasions in all the years

I've seen a few like this. It would have happened to me without good advice from the AAR contributors and some knowledge f the past games that have resulted in the IJA running through India and almost getting it all. The radar game is for most in my mind, but Nick was a bit less experienced then than radar. until the end!

Didn't PzB also do well in India? And Cribtop made a very successful NE India invasion in a recent game. Getting a bunch of Allied commenwealth units off the board is a good second objective in India even if the first of securing more resources doesn't pay off as a positive.

I can get behind that desire, but it depends so much on your opponent's dispositions.

If the Allies run the chances of getting the industry intact are higher. I haven't done the calculations but it seems the NE area is about like having another Kyoto when you count Calcutta, Jamshedpur, Asanol and Ledo's oil. If you take the southern tip with Madras, Bangalore and Hyderabad too it's a bit more. Should pay for itself and kill some commonwealth troops.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
Post Reply

Return to “After Action Reports”