Debate on the IJN type 93 torpedo

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I don't know exactly what the code does, but in the real war, Allied crews knew what a torpedo run looked like on radar and would know to be alert for torpedoes in the water when they saw smaller ships charging towards them at flank speed then suddenly turning to expose the torpedo racks.

Bill

Didn't think the radars could pick them up, sonar perhaps?

not the torpedoes are picked up by radar but the ships launching them

[wdolson]

Ships making a torpedo attack move in a certain way that would be obvious to any experienced crew watching the radar scopes.

Bll

[Rising-Sun]

Well a cunning commander or captains and I am pretty sure they try this tactics, by placing couple destroyers in front of them to block their views by 5,000 yards or so and cruisers would be launching their spread and signal the destroyers to flank ahead or turn around. I don't see how radars can pick up a ship that showing launching torpedoes. Getting a visual of that ship if in the right angle, distance as depend on the weather, it can be spotted. When I mention launching their torpedoes after the destroyers break off, the targets should be around 12-15,000 yards away. Infact the Japanese DDs, CLs usually have secondary loads for TT mounts.

Also floatplanes can spot them pretty easy in the air, if time it properly and align up or evasion maneuver if possible. But close engagement wouldn't have enough time to react if they are too close, those things travel pretty darn fast.

Not sure how long it take to reload them, depending on skills and what kinda of mounts it is, around thirty minutes or so. Wondering how much those torpedoes cost to make them, 5,000 yens? Believe American Torpedoes the one carrying by submarines cost around 10,000 USD each, Mk-14 or 15.

[spence]

It is a good analysis but it fails little short in comparing battles that where not fought as defined in the IJN doctrine

Yeah...the Allies should have fought like the IJN wanted them to fight. Cheaters never prosper.

Lets talk about the way they wanted it to go; the perfect setup: IJN Battlefleet vs Taffy 3. BTW the Type 93s killed a couple of cruisers in that one: Chokai and Suzuya.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

Well a cunning commander or captains and I am pretty sure they try this tactics, by placing couple destroyers in front of them to block their views by 5,000 yards or so and cruisers would be launching their spread and signal the destroyers to flank ahead or turn around. I don't see how radars can pick up a ship that showing launching torpedoes. Getting a visual of that ship if in the right angle, distance as depend on the weather, it can be spotted. When I mention launching their torpedoes after the destroyers break off, the targets should be around 12-15,000 yards away. Infact the Japanese DDs, CLs usually have secondary loads for TT mounts.

Not sure how long it take to reload them, depending on skills and what kinda of mounts it is, around thirty minutes or so. Wondering how much those torpedoes cost to make them, 5,000 yens? Believe American Torpedoes the one carrying by submarines cost around 10,000 USD each, Mk-14 or 15.

You miss the point. Radar and improved fire control changed the tactics of night actions entirely. These tactics you propose all look good on paper but by 1944 Allied gunnery and ranging was so refined that these attacking ships would be getting fairly blasted by gunfire. What worked in 1942 was no longer necessarily the case in mid 44. The fact was that even in the best of days with the best of tactics, torpedoes launched at long range rarely hit anything. A decent chance to hit with torpedoes necessitated closing to a range where later in the war improved Allied gunnery had made very difficult-almost impossible.

Even the dubious benefit of forcing course changes and disrupting gunnery no longer held water. Frequent course changes were actually very difficult on treaty cruisers and older DDs with their slow turrets, rate of fire and primitive fire control. This was less so the case for later war Allied ships which had superior items in all of these categories and were able to recover and re-target the enemy at a much faster rate.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: RisingSun

Actually Japan was short on escorts and DDs to support the screen of capitol ships.

During engagements, when torpedoes are in the water, I believe the system will check to see if this is night or day. Night time would be almost impossible to see the torpedoes coming, but during the day, believe the system will check to see if the torpedoes have been spotted and trying to maneuver them, the smaller ships would have better chance to maneuver than larger ships. Radars would have no effects on this situations, pretty much there not much you can do while these torpedoes in the water. Now the percentage of moonlight during night engagement, I believe there small chance to spot them.

In game terms radar tends to open the initial engagement range in night fights. If the fight opens at 10-8000 yards and most ships typically fire of their torpedoes in the opening rounds then there is less chance of hits occurring. Moonlight also has an effect on this as ships tend to engage at longer ranges when there is more moonlight. In the game, the ideal time for torpedoes to hit is in a early war night action with very low moonlight. I am sure there are many factors that can affect a torpedo hit but basically the best chance to hit is when the torpedoes are launched at the shortest range.

If you want to see total torpedo havoc. Send your old Allied BBs into a night action against DDs and CAs in 3/42 on a moonless night.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: spence

Yeah...the Allies should have fought like the IJN wanted them to fight. Cheaters never prosper.

Lets talk about the way they wanted it to go; the perfect setup: IJN Battlefleet vs Taffy 3. BTW the Type 93s killed a couple of cruisers in that one: Chokai and Suzuya.

Suzuya and Chokai were both crippled by their own torpedoes going off. The Chokai had a lucky hit from a 5 inch shell from the White Plains in the torpedo storage area which set off a number of torpedoes and started a major fire. Suzuya's torpedoes were set off by a near miss from an aircraft where another bomb had taken off one of her propellers.

I believe the only torpedo hit that day was from the Johnston which hit the Komano.

That day, the type 93 were more a liability than an asset. Something the game doesn't model all that well.

ORIGINAL: crsutton
You miss the point. Radar and improved fire control changed the tactics of night actions entirely. These tactics you propose all look good on paper but by 1944 Allied gunnery and ranging was so refined that these attacking ships would be getting fairly blasted by gunfire. What worked in 1942 was no longer necessarily the case in mid 44. The fact was that even in the best of days with the best of tactics, torpedoes launched at long range rarely hit anything. A decent chance to hit with torpedoes necessitated closing to a range where later in the war improved Allied gunnery had made very difficult-almost impossible.

Even the dubious benefit of forcing course changes and disrupting gunnery no longer held water. Frequent course changes were actually very difficult on treaty cruisers and older DDs with their slow turrets, rate of fire and primitive fire control. This was less so the case for later war Allied ships which had superior items in all of these categories and were able to recover and re-target the enemy at a much faster rate.

Yes, by 1944, any Japanese ship in any night surface action that charged a US surface force would have been the first targeted. If it was a feint, the USN ships would still maneuver to get out of the way when the ships turned side on to them, paused long enough to launch torpedoes, then turned around. Torpedoes are faster than surface ships, but they are slow enough to get away from if you know the moment they are launched torpedoes are coming your way.

It's the same reason B-17s or any other high altitude bomber couldn't hit maneuvering ships from altitude. Bombs take time to fall and the higher up you are, the longer the drop. Observers on the ship know when the bombs are released and the ship just makes sure they are out of the way of the bombs when they reach the surface.

Torpedoes need some run time to arm, so you can't release point blank. I don't know what the arming distance was for the Type 93, but it was probably not under 500 yards. Getting that close to a radar equipped US ship in 1944 would be suicide unless you outnumbered them. It's doubtful many ships would reach a normal launch range against a US cruiser or BB force. They might against a destroyer squadron, but it's unlikely they would get any hits.

Bill

[Hyacinth]

ORIGINAL: spence

It is a good analysis but it fails little short in comparing battles that where not fought as defined in the IJN doctrine

Yeah...the Allies should have fought like the IJN wanted them to fight. Cheaters never prosper.

Lets talk about the way they wanted it to go; the perfect setup: IJN Battlefleet vs Taffy 3. BTW the Type 93s killed a couple of cruisers in that one: Chokai and Suzuya.

You should have quoted me also about my comment on late war battles.

The Japanese doctrine was sound, technology made it obsolete in two years.

[Rising-Sun]

That is true that Allied gotten better radars and fire controls sometime in mid '43+, but wondering did the Japanese ever tried to get into magnetic torpedoes, and/or even homing device? Believe the Germans manage to get magnetic torpedoes as well mines, those two countries have been sharing techs.

[Buckrock]

ORIGINAL: wdolson
Suzuya and Chokai were both crippled by their own torpedoes going off. The Chokai had a lucky hit from a 5 inch shell from the White Plains in the torpedo storage area which set off a number of torpedoes and started a major fire.

It's worth mentioning that Chokai's torpedoes detonating from a shell hit is based on a theory put forward by Anthony Tully in his article for Warship International some years ago. In it, he attempted to piece together what may have happened to the Chokai that could have left her reportedly crippled minutes before the first recorded bombing attack on her.

I thought Tully made a good case but unless some further info has come to light recently, his evidence would still remain circumstantial. IIRC, Hornfischer used Tully's explanation in "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" but didn't seem to supply any additional evidence. What I think he did add was the claim that it was shells from the White Plains' 5" gun that got the critical hit.

Strangely though, the White Plains' official account of the action makes no mention of any major explosion on her two cruiser targets, only noting that one of her hits appeared to have disabled one of the fwd turrets of her last target.