scaling in ToS

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Sat Apr 19, 2003 5:23 pm

In the wake of the recent ToS vs BT discussion, here's an issue that is probably the only thing that I don't find too adequate in ToS: scales. This is an old issue, just thought I'd bring it back to widen the discussion topics in the forum.
As a long time BT fan (I've played the board game since its inception), I find ToS to be a *major* improvement of the BT concept in all fronts - ok, no vehicles and infantry of any kind, and no artillery and whatnot, but then I don't really miss them. Good for the books, but the game should focus on 'Mechs/Titans - the whole point is to picture yourself piloting one of those steel behemoths against a similar foe, not facing them on the ground like a common soldier! Wargames deal with infantry and tanks.
Anyway, like I was saying, two of the measurement scales used in the definition of Titans in ToS are less than perfect IMO: the height scale and the weight scale.

As for heights, ToS has improved the general 2-level (~12m) tall 'Mech to a categorized height system, depending on weight class and chassis. This is a great concept, much more realistic and with more impact in LoS. But I would have implemented it differently. I would have given all the chassis in the same weight class the same height. Why?
First, because that would allow reducing the span of chassis heights, going 6-8-10-12-14 or 7-9-11-13-15. Having an assault be 3 times as tall as a recon is not a good model IMO, even considering the weight difference (I'll get there soon) - double seems a lot more logical. This would also make rivers and swamps and the like work more logically, since the heat dissipation increase you get in a recon waist-deep in a river is the same as a barely ankle-deep assault - even considering relative immerse mass. Not only that, the "martial arts" problem would be considerably reduced - a 6m recon kicking/punching or ax'ing a 19m assault in the head, heh; and charge damage distribution too.
Second, the taller chassis within a given weight class are generally the best, since they have more slots (and therefore internal structure) and are faster. Being taller, even by just 1m, is another advantage they do not need - important in LoS, scan height, lock acquisition,...
This would have some impact on the game, namely on LoS and height defensive modifiers.

Titan weight is where I think ToS incorrectly strayed from BT. Though the horde of available systems and need for more armor (which make Titans more solid entities than 'Mechs IMO) require more tonnage, again the weight span deviates from solid models. The weight limits have the same relation (doubled in ToS relative to BT), the weight *difference* between the lightest and the heaviest chassis is also doubled! That's a huge difference.
Not that this has a great impact on the game, by cutting the weight of all equipment in half you'd get a 'Mech out of a Titan. Probably only charges would have to be tweaked to compensate the decreased tonnages.

Notice I only mentioned Titan related scales, not terrain related. That's another story, but I think those fit very well the scheme of the game

Of course, these points only surface when you actually *think* about these things, in a logic approach. But we all know this is a game, and as such ToS ROCKS and beats the cr@p out of BT

whitefirefox · Post by **whitefirefox** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 11:20 pm

the whole point is to picture yourself piloting one of those steel behemoths against a similar foe, not facing them on the ground like a common soldier! Wargames deal with infantry and tanks.

yeah but an infantry man can carry anti-tank weaponry can't they? (yes i get what you mean and i agree with ya but hey im bored and the forums need more activity) a titan or a mech is pretty much a tank on 2 legs with alot more guns and armor (and then theres things like commandos setting up time bombs on specific parts)

Though the horde of available systems and need for more armor (which make Titans more solid entities than 'Mechs IMO) require more tonnage, again the weight span deviates from solid models.

alright ill give ya systems (lets face it the ecm and bap systems suck for mechs but you don't have an anti-missle system beside flares which don't work very well if your moving) but IMO a good Mech pilot can take a Titan out because lets face it a Puma has twin PPC's and is fast, not to mention having a low profile, making for a fairly tough target to hit

armor ill give ya also but once again a good mech pilot can probably take a titan out (granted both of these situations are me expecting it to be a "semi-even" fight (meaning the mech is a light fighting a light titan)) like an uziel with not only twin PPC's but also other weapon systems could probably take at least an arm off (the uziels hardpoint load outs escape me at the moment)

EDIT: lets face it it doesn't really matter entirely what kind of mech or titan is being used its how good the pilot is inside of it

if thers a pilot in it that can't hit anything unless point blank fighting a long rnage marksman then the marksman will probably do enough damage to take the other pilot on in close ranged combat

my head hurts now im thinking way too much for one day :p

and no i don't think i need any "help" with "curing" my head ache from you guys

tarendelcymir · Post by **tarendelcymir** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 11:26 pm

Originally posted by whitefirefox
yeah but an infantry man can carry anti-tank weaponry can't they? (yes i get what you mean and i agree with ya but hey im bored and the forums need more activity) a titan or a mech is pretty much a tank on 2 legs with alot more guns and armor (and then theres things like commandos setting up time bombs on specific parts)

alright ill give ya systems (lets face it the ecm and bap systems suck for mechs but you don't have an anti-missle system beside flares which don't work very well if your moving) but IMO a good Mech pilot can take a Titan out because lets face it a Puma has twin PPC's and is fast, not to mention having a low profile, making for a fairly tough target to hit

armor ill give ya also but once again a good mech pilot can probably take a titan out (granted both of these situations are me expecting it to be a "semi-even" fight (meaning the mech is a light fighting a light titan)) like an uziel with not only twin PPC's but also other weapon systems could probably take at least an arm off (the uziels hardpoint load outs escape me at the moment)

I don't agree. A light titan can be up to 70 tons, whereas a light mech maxes out around 40-45. When you add in the fact that titans have more armor per ton than mechs, I don't think it would be possible to have a really fair match between titans and mechs.

Don't forget about shields, either. That Puma or Uziel would have a hell of a time facing a titan with a half-decent shield.

The speed of the mech wouldn't be any advantage if it was facing a light titan, because those are fast, too. It's mostly the pilot that matters, and that holds true for both sides - a good BT pilot could beat a poor or average titan jock, and a good titan jock could beat a poor average mech pilot, assuming the machines were somewhat evenly matched.

Given a choice, though, I'd take a ToS over a 'Mech just about any time.

whitefirefox · Post by **whitefirefox** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 11:36 pm

tarendelcymir: well you go get your medium titan and ill go get my medium mech and we'll see who is better later k?

i think it would be kinda funny to watch a swarm of guerillas swarming all over a titan or mech planting bombs wouldn't you? it'd be like an ant farm and you could step on them hehehe

of course then you'd get blown up by the time bombs :p

tarendelcymir · Post by **tarendelcymir** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 11:50 pm

Originally posted by whitefirefox
tarendelcymir: well you go get your medium titan and ill go get my medium mech and we'll see who is better later k?

i think it would be kinda funny to watch a swarm of guerillas swarming all over a titan or mech planting bombs wouldn't you? it'd be like an ant farm and you could step on them hehehe

of course then you'd get blown up by the time bombs :p

Just compare the armor values of a medium mech and a medium titan. I'm at work, and don't have details right now, but I'd be willing to bet that most medium mechs couldn't stand up to a single salvo from most medium titans. Speed wouldn't count for much if both pilots were good.

whitefirefox · Post by **whitefirefox** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 12:19 am

well say you do luanch that missle salvo i probably COULD withstand it frankly because of the mechs anti-missle systems that are on board plus i could just try to wing it and shoot the missles down myself (which is entirely possible) then i could open up with my own missle salvo

and besides whats it matter with armor? ive killed atlas's using nothing but a puma before it'd be about the same thing except the titan would be slightly faster

you must admit this does make some sense

tarendelcymir · Post by **tarendelcymir** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 12:49 am

Originally posted by whitefirefox
well say you do luanch that missle salvo i probably COULD withstand it frankly because of the mechs anti-missle systems that are on board plus i could just try to wing it and shoot the missles down myself (which is entirely possible) then i could open up with my own missle salvo

and besides whats it matter with armor? ive killed atlas's using nothing but a puma before it'd be about the same thing except the titan would be slightly faster

you must admit this does make some sense

You've killed Atlas's with nothing but a Puma where? In MechWarrior or MechCommander, which we've already established as being unrealistic?

As to the above, who says I'd use missiles? You can't shoot down an AC round or a laser, nor would you AMS help you.

whitefirefox · Post by **whitefirefox** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 3:15 am

MW4: Mercs using a puma with a clan LBX-AC20 and a clan ER PPC
nothing is impossible just look at hetz collection of not-quite-so-shrunken-heads he's collected

as for the ac's and lasers that is true i have no defense..........beyond manuevering...........just look at the dodge order for tos makes it pretty hard to hit a target unless your a crack shot right? i prefer manueverable mechs frankly: pumas, ullers, shadow cats, suped up mad cats, really suped up mad cat mk ii's

but one thing............why is it were arguing over who can pilot better? were both good at what we do and we both know that a mech could give a titan a very good run for its money if not beating it

P.S. if memory serves correct MC2 doesn't have a puma i don't know about MC1 but im VERY sure about MC2

EDIT: hey thorgrim you started this thread how about a few comments from yourself?

tarendelcymir · Post by **tarendelcymir** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 3:31 am

Originally posted by whitefirefox
MW4: Mercs using a puma with a clan LBX-AC20 and a clan ER PPC
nothing is impossible just look at hetz collection of not-quite-so-shrunken-heads he's collected

as for the ac's and lasers that is true i have no defense..........beyond manuevering...........just look at the dodge order for tos makes it pretty hard to hit a target unless your a crack shot right? i prefer manueverable mechs frankly: pumas, ullers, shadow cats, suped up mad cats, really suped up mad cat mk ii's

but one thing............why is it were arguing over who can pilot better? were both good at what we do and we both know that a mech could give a titan a very good run for its money if not beating it

P.S. if memory serves correct MC2 doesn't have a puma i don't know about MC1 but im VERY sure about MC2

EDIT: hey thorgrim you started this thread how about a few comments from yourself?

I see what you're saying, but have to point out that, were ToS a realtime simulation like MechWarrior, the recons, lights, mediums, and even some heavy titans would be just as maneuverable as their BT counterparts. It's just the difference in strategy and sim game that makes them seem slower.

I didn't think we were arguing over who was a better pilot. I was just stating my opinion that a good ToS pilot could beat a good BT pilot, given machines in equivalent weight classes, simply because titans are more heavily armored and have equally powerful weapons. A light mech can mass up to what...45 tons? A light titan can mass up to 70 tons, with proportionately thicker armor. It's a mismatch, really. A strong medium mech could probably take a light titan, but not a medium one, given pilots of equal skill. It's not any slight against BattleTech - I love the game, been playing the board game for years, have about 50 of the novel, and most of the computer games - it's just that titans are bigger and tougher.

whitefirefox · Post by **whitefirefox** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 4:44 am

but biggers not always better

all that size does is makes a bigger target

tarendelcymir · Post by **tarendelcymir** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 6:12 am

Originally posted by whitefirefox
but biggers not always better

all that size does is makes a bigger target

Bigger is almost always better when you're talking about giant war machines. The titan's armor would allow it to withstand the same hits that would tear the mech apart.

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 11:49 pm

I don't think that you can compare titans with mechs as they are based on a different rule system. Only if both systems would use the same weight/slot/damage/protection ratio for their components they can be compared. I think ToS is supperior to Batteltech only because of its much more detailed rule system, not because a light titan can beat a light mech.

ToS has a much better jock/pilot skill/experience system as well.

BUT I also know that it is based on the Battletech rules and more important on the brilliant move/attack turn sequence of Mechforce which is way ahead of the standard you go/I go system most wargames do use even if they have implemeted opportunity fire.

tarendelcymir · Post by **tarendelcymir** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 12:00 am

Originally posted by LarkinVB
I don't think that you can compare titans with mechs as they are based on a different rule system. Only if both systems would use the same weight/slot/damage/protection ratio for their components they can be compared. I think ToS is supperior to Batteltech only because of its much more detailed rule system, not because a light titan can beat a light mech.

ToS has a much better jock/pilot skill/experience system as well.

BUT I also know that it is based on the Battletech rules and more important on the brilliant move/attack turn sequence of Mechforce which is way ahead of the standard you go/I go system most wargames do use even if they have implemeted opportunity fire.

That about sums it up.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 3:43 am

When I started this thread, I didn't expect it to get so BORING!!!
As to my oppinion, barring a lucky shot, a Titan will kick the living daylights out of an equivalent 'Mech any day of the week - being that lucky shots in ToS are much less deadly than in BT, since the head has 3 times as much potential armor.
Does that answer your question wff?

tarendelcymir · Post by **tarendelcymir** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 3:54 am

Originally posted by Thorgrim
When I started this thread, I didn't expect it to get so BORING!!!
As to my oppinion, barring a lucky shot, a Titan will kick the living daylights out of an equivalent 'Mech any day of the week - being that lucky shots in ToS are much less deadly than in BT, since the head has 3 times as much potential armor.
Does that answer your question wff?

Glad to see you agree with me, even if you think we're boring.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 4:31 am

Hmm, actually, what you guys did was simply to transfer the discussion going on in another thread to this one. That was not the intent of this thread. The discussion was already boring enough in that other thread, with wff insisting on comparing grossly-strayed simulations with the ToS "mode"-based system. I've been away for 2 days, and when I come back everything is at the exact same point - that is boring.
Yes, I agree with you, but I'd agree much more if you'd just leave wff talking to himself instead of trying to show him his mistakes over and over again - he just doesn't seem to be interested

Anyways, I was just expressing my opinion.

(BTW, what would be the outcome of a HMG shot to a 'Mech's head?

)

tarendelcymir · Post by **tarendelcymir** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 4:36 am

Originally posted by Thorgrim
Hmm, actually, what you guys did was simply to transfer the discussion going on in another thread to this one. That was not the intent of this thread. The discussion was already boring enough in that other thread, with wff insisting on comparing grossly-strayed simulations with the ToS "mode"-based system. I've been away for 2 days, and when I come back everything is at the exact same point - that is boring.
Yes, I agree with you, but I'd agree much more if you'd just leave wff talking to himself instead of trying to show him his mistakes over and over again - he just doesn't seem to be interested

Anyways, I was just expressing my opinion.

(BTW, what would be the outcome of a HMG shot to a 'Mech's head? )

The result would be one dead 'Mech jock. You're right about just leaving it alone, too, but it's difficult.

tarendelcymir · Post by **tarendelcymir** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 4:42 am

On the other hand, at least it got some posting going on for a bit. I'd consider a dead forum more boring than one that posts something, even if it's more or less unrelated.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:04 am

Yeah, I know it's difficult. I usually can't help myself too. Heck, you know the arguments I've gotten into because of that "trait". :rolleyes:

tarendelcymir · Post by **tarendelcymir** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:36 am

Originally posted by Thorgrim
Yeah, I know it's difficult. I usually can't help myself too. Heck, you know the arguments I've gotten into because of that "trait". :rolleyes:

Heh, I do indeed. And like I said, at least it gives a little life to the forum.