Combined arms

[Smirfy]

Combined arms, its not working.

[Nico165b165]

I think you're gonna need to be a little more precise than that, and I think you know it [:D]

[nedcorleone1]

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


Combined arms, its not working.

Did your keyboard die on you or was this a concerted effort to withhold everything that could be considered important?

[Smirfy]

Its like what I said combined arms aint working no value in attaching tanks, artillery or airsupport. Nothing they did is reflected in the mechanics. The only route is 80,000 v 5,000 which aint WWII

[nedcorleone1]

Tech Support forum is this way ---> tt.asp?forumid=1454

[Smirfy]

Fine here thanks, because I assume presently everything is WAD and was more wondering how "all arm combat" could be better reflected rather than throwing 300 bren carriers and 400 6pdrs at the Gothic line.

[nedcorleone1]

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Fine here thanks, because I assume presently everything is WAD and was more wondering how "all arm combat" could be better reflected rather than throwing 300 bren carriers and 400 6pdrs at the Gothic line.

Ah, some insightful information surfaces. I'll take "More Please" for $600 Alex.

[Helpless]

Its like what I said combined arms aint working no value in attaching tanks, artillery or airsupport. Nothing they did is reflected in the mechanics.

Battle result depends on land control values of opposing sides at the end of the battle. Firepower it not directly related to it, so if you would like to win battles you need to combine then.
Ex.

Tanks/AFV - have moderate firepower, but one of the largest CV per squad.
Infantry - low firepower, moderate CV per squad.
Engineers - low firepower, moderate CV, fort reduction capability
Artillery - very high firepower, very low CV
Air - very high fire power, no CV.

So in order to be efficient, i.e. win with low cost, you need to combine. Many units in WITW already utilize most of elements, so you don't need to micromanage it a lot.

P.S. btw, CV values per squad are moddable in WITW.

[Smirfy]

Thank you Helpless usefull stuff there. Can win battles but not in an efficent way, just like the ineffiecient "Battle of Palermo" in another thread. IRL a division which I assume is the type of unit you are talking about would have had little difficulty there even less with some corps artillery helping out. Just not getting that in play.

For example in Italy everyone wanted a Churchill attachment and especially a 25th armoured engineering brigade attachment when that unit arrived (it had crocs and crabs as well) In game I feel its just better keeping them and the Churchills a unit were in reality when attached to infantry they were 1000% times more effective than the sum of its two parts.

[HMSWarspite]

Guys, do a search on Smirfy. You might find it illuminating.

[nedcorleone1]

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite
Guys, do a search on Smirfy. You might find it illuminating.

I've come close to toggling the 'little green button' to red. The AAR was pretty good though so I don't know.

[Smirfy]

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Guys, do a search on Smirfy. You might find it illuminating.

Yup I found alot of "holes" in the game it is true excessive movement, teleports, cheating AI, ludicrous combat results, death star isolated units, excessive flak and operational losses, wrong OOB's probably a few Ive forgotten but yes its quite illuminating that I want to improve the product.

[nedcorleone1]

ORIGINAL: Smirfy
Yup I found alot of "holes" in the game it is true excessive movement, teleports, cheating AI, ludicrous combat results, death star isolated units, excessive flak and operational losses, wrong OOB's probably a few Ive forgotten but yes its quite illuminating that I want to improve the product.

We know smirfy but dat attitude...

[Smirfy]

ORIGINAL: mr_flappypants

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite
Guys, do a search on Smirfy. You might find it illuminating.

I've come close to toggling the 'little green button' to red. The AAR was pretty good though so I don't know.

Thank you and feel free. I was enjoying the game of my AAR very much and intended to continue on but got engrossed in the combat part and felt it needed expounded on given its relationship to so many features like attachments. The patch which improved transports and some of the gameplay I learnt from the helpful people on here meant it would have been pointless not starting afresh. I hope when the game settles down patch wise to produce another AAR.

[Smirfy]

ORIGINAL: mr_flappypants

ORIGINAL: Smirfy
Yup I found alot of "holes" in the game it is true excessive movement, teleports, cheating AI, ludicrous combat results, death star isolated units, excessive flak and operational losses, wrong OOB's probably a few Ive forgotten but yes its quite illuminating that I want to improve the product.

We know smirfy but dat attitude...

Yes I know and I can only apoligize for my lack of communication skills but when you dont have lots of time sometimes you have to cut to the chase. Again its purely my fault.

[Joel Billings]

Just to expand on Pavel's comments, the airpower and artillery can be good at disrupting enemy units, which takes their CV out of play for retreat calculations. Allied artillery should get bonuses to come into battle more often in in larger quantities. Infantry has increased CV in dense terrain and AFVs less CV so it makes using the right units in the right terrain important.

[Smirfy]

Thank you for expanding on Pavel's comments but I would respectively suggest that maybe some of that needs tweaking especially when this applies to attachments I would also suggest that would apply to direct tank, engineer tank, anti tank gun, assault gun and Jagd attachments whether those tweaks should apply in attack or defence. Its not quite getting that all arms feel.

[Flaviusx]

Smirfy, you are on the road to madness here. At some point you have to take the combat engine on faith and accept it for what it is. I'm not sure how closely the WITW version resembles the WITE version, but I do see things you're doing wrong in your combats based on the former. I keep wondering where your engineering support is, for example.

The engine tries to simulate tactical combat under the hood, which is not necessarily a huge improvement over old school CRTs and such.

[Smirfy]

Thank you for your candid reply Flavius, In my case study battle as I explained the engineering support was there. I'll post a screen shot. That does not include 5 divisions with all their *intrinsic* engineers in the all arms units Helpless is talking about. The number of engineers was enormous and you can see them from the screens already there, they equated probably to the strength of the force I was actually attacking. So Im sorry lack of Engineers is certainly not the fault there. I never looked at WiTE's combat too closely and played it like your old CRT games. The Russian Front was usually overwhelming numbers so it did not seem too crtical to game play so long as your stack beat their stack. Provided you wernt to gamey it played rather well as that up until mid 42. On the Western Front however use of equipment and logistics was the major factor of Allied victory not so much the 70000 v 5000 to get the right odds so I was a bit more interested in the Combat engine, My apologies for that interest.

Its a shame that the games goes to such great lengths to represent the TOE of all the units and is basically in your opinion not a "huge improvement" on a D6 roll on a CRT.

[Flaviusx]

I think it is a mismatch in scale, personally. You cannot really micro the tactical stuff at this operational level. It becomes too opaque and esoteric with all sorts of unseen things going on. By trial and error you figure out what works best and adjust accordingly.

In the end, I'm just not sure this is better than saying the hell with it and abstracting things and throwing in a CRT. Simplify and cut to the chase. And that at least puts all the information in front of the player.

I predict that once you crack the particulars of the combat engine you will be able to play it with a high degree of predictability and get more or less historical results within a broad range, so long as you don't think too deeply about this. (This is where the road to madness lies.) But if it kills your sense of wonder and suspension of disbelief then that's a whole other problem.