Is Air Supply working as designed?

[Seminole]

17.3.7. Air Transport of Freight
Air transport of freight is used to provide units freight
either through an existing airfield or by air parachute
drop. When air freight is air transported to a hex,
if there is no depot in the hex, a temporary depot is
created. Whether a temporary depot or an already
existing depot receives the air transported freight, the
instant an air transported shipment arrives in a hex,
a special distribution takes places of freight from the
depot in the hex. This special distribution is of supplies,
fuel and ammo only (no replacements) and goes
to units in the hex or adjacent to the hex. If there is
already freight in the depot, then some of this freight
may be distributed out along with the freight that was
dropped.

I had already noticed that air supply seemed like an extremely effective way to 'top off' mech units fuel (at the cost of admin points if you're devoting LBs to the task).
If it is possible to pull the AI logistics phase save from the server for the game between myself and Bomazz I think that this can be easily tested.

Bomazz made a turn 3 landing in the toe and I used air supply from one of my Ju-88 groups to top off a PzG Div (with adjacent PzG Bdes) in a clear hex. The battle screen said the air supply dropped 0 tons of supplies, but when I looked at the units they were in the 90s for supplies/fuel/ammo. I saw a red line drawn from Reggio Calabria (where there is a depot) to the hex I air supplied during the resolution.

I think that if the air supply temporary depot is connected to the supply chain what actually happens is that the supply phase runs for the units in the air supply target hex (and adjacent hexes) from the supply grid, not just the temporary depot in the hex.

I want to be able to use air supply (it's a critical element in some strategies), but this seems broken and overpowered. Is it supposed to be a 1 admin point cost 'HQ build up'? 5 admin points a turn I think would allow for supply shenanigans from the Axis that will defeat a lot of the effort to cripple the supply network.

[marion61]

Thanks man, I just learned something new. I don't normally ever use bombers for freight, but I also didn't know it cost admin. points till now per air group.

[Seminole]

Thanks man, I just learned something new. I don't normally ever use bombers for freight, but I also didn't know it cost admin. points till now per air group.

I didn't figure it out until the other day when some admin points disappeared inexplicably. I missed that part in the rules but caught it when rereading after seeing this behavior.
If the Axis player wanted to get really gamey they could just use the 'Stab' LB air groups, as tons delivered doesn't actually seem to matter, just tripping the trigger to re-run of the supply phase for the affected units.

I have a couple of games going now (not intentionally, but after a while of not getting an initial response I would grab another game and I started all of the sudden getting turns back - apologies opponents, you're not forgotten, I'm trying to give each you the time and smiting you deserve!). It is allowing me to test and refine some things as I go, but I want to use air supply to supplement one strategy in particular, but this just doesn't seem right.

Italians start with more than half a dozen transport wings, which would incur no cost to use in this manner. I don't want to put my games on hold, but I've also set a lot in motion intending to be able to use (before realizing it is apparently broken) this ability.

It's not my intention to 'break the game', and I want to be able to play both sides (I assume this works either way, but on net will probably be more useful to the Axis). Can someone chime if is this is WAD?

[Baelfiin]

At the end of the day you still have to get the freight to the depot for it to be distributed.
My experience from both sides of the ball is that is a useful tool but it is limited. If you have an airfield to fly stuff into it helps of course.

[Seminole]

At the end of the day you still have to get the freight to the depot for it to be distributed.

My experience is limited, but I haven't seen trouble getting supplies to my depots. Pelton reported no supply problems just having early on created depots near the probable landing zones.
The issue isn't actual freight delivered from the sky or over land, but the loop hole that appears to allow for an unintended supply phase cycle mid turn, at no or limited cost, from the ground supply grid.

My experience from both sides of the ball is that is a useful tool but it is limited. If you have an airfield to fly stuff into it helps of course.

Your comment about the airfield suggests you aren't seeing the problem I'm trying to point at.
In my example I had 1 PzG Div (target) and 2 PzG Bde (adjacent) supplied by air in a clear hex with no airfield.
ZERO tons of freight were dropped, yet all three got their supply, fuel, and ammo pushed into the 90s because they apparently ran another supply phase and pulled from the nearby depot when their 'temporary depot' was filled with ZERO freight from the air.

Maybe something just recently broke this, so people hadn't noticed, but I think that is not what the rule is written to do, and it is unbalancing. It pretty effectively eviscerates the efforts to put sand in the gears of the supply system if a player can run supply phases almost at will, for specific units, with the ability to move them before and after.

I think the ability to top off mech units at 90 fuel is very important. You can top units off before and after battle with ammo and gas. Think of the effect that can have on reserve activation, and being able to conduct perhaps one more deliberate attack next turn. Or to squeeze through a gap and exploit beyond it.

The way it appears to work now allows an extra supply phase for 150+whatever-number-of-transport-groups x 30 miles wide of beachhead to get an extra supply phase from the ground supply network.

I think if there is a way during the air supply extra supply phase to isolate the temporary depot from the supply grid (unless the delivery is on top of an existing depot, in which case those supplies should also be available is how the rule reads to me now) this becomes a none issue.
There just needs to be something that doesn't allow for "a unit [to] receive shipments from up to five different depots in a logistics phase" when getting air supplied.

[Baelfiin]

One thing to note is that freight has to come from in hex or adjacent depot. The freight that got dropped was used as well.

It looks like when there is a lot of interdiction in the depot hex or the drawing hex you take attrition losses trucking that stuff around from depot to unit.

Do you not still need to have Movement points for reserve activation?

[Seminole]

One thing to note is that freight has to come from in hex or adjacent depot.

Correct - that is the problem - AIR SUPPLY is creating a draw from nearby ground depots. The player can repeat this 'extra supply phase' at will over selected units so long as they have transport groups or admin points. In the context of a beach head battle, that's more than enough to keep all the defenders is bright green.

The freight that got dropped was used as well.

It doesn't matter if any freight is dropped. It is going to be insignificant relevant to the freight drawn from nearby depots over land as result of the logistics phase trigger for the affected units.

It looks like when there is a lot of interdiction in the depot hex or the drawing hex you take attrition losses trucking that stuff around from depot to unit.

With exceptions:

Normally vehicles are used for the delivery of supply
and replacement to units from depots. For non-isolated
units, German and type (0) non-motorized Allied units can
receive supply and replacements from a depot without
having to use vehicles up to 3 hexes from the depot
through the use of animal drawn transport. However,
this will cost double the freight being delivered as the
animal drawn transport is assumed to be consuming
fodder (if the unit is isolated, it receives the delivery but
does not pay double freight).

Pelton said he didn't have supply problems having his depots close to the invasion beaches. I haven't seen myself how this rule plays out, but I know he pays attention to his motor pool.

Do you not still need to have Movement points for reserve activation?

Correct, but ending a turn with 90+ fuel and supplies leads to a very high MP number the subsequent turn. If I start with 40+ MPs because I bump a unit to 90+ MPs at the end of each turn then I have MP to get back to the line, make a deliberate attack (or two), back off the line, get air resupply back into the 90s, and wait to the start the next supply phase overfilling my cup. Rinse, repeat. I think this can overwhelm efforts to crimp the supply network, and that's part of why I think it is unintentional.

Maybe this will be like HQBU and will get some nerfs, but I have a feeling this is unintentional, and will be fixed to align with how the manual reads by not allowing a supply draw from beyond the air supplied hex itself.
We have no clue how much this may have played into outcomes we've already seen. Now that I've seen how effective it is to run extra supply phases I can't see a reason not to burn an admin point making sure each depot in my defensive network had an airstrip for how the rule will work as written.

[Baelfiin]

I am not sure Pelton ever dealt with a heavy interdiction environment for his air supply.
If there was no allied airpower I see how this can make the Germans pretty strong. In my game with him his transports got shot down in droves trying to supply his guys on Sardinia and to a lesser extent on the frontline around Rome.
In my game with AWG he was putting a lot of interdiction on my invasion beaches and I would take hundreds of casualties every time I flew a supply mission.
I wonder how sustainable those frontline depots are if you are paying double to resupply?

I think you can get 20k stored in a depot So theoretically that could last several turns. I guess it would boil down to how much freight you can get to the front and how fast you use it up.
Doing a lot of movement in high level interdiction sounds dangerous but maybe it is not as harsh as I remember it being.

Good point on the airstrips. Maybe that is something that they should look at. Maybe reducing freight delivery depending on how big the airstrip is, 3 = full, 2 = 2/3, 1= 1/3.

[Seminole]

I am not sure Pelton ever dealt with a heavy interdiction environment for his air supply.

Interdiction will slow the flow over rail to the depots, but does interdiction come into play for resupply within 3 hexes of a depot (and thus using animal drawn supply)? The rule measures the distance by hexes, not MP, so I'm not sure what, if anything, interdiction does to resupply within 'horse-drawn distance'.

If there was no allied airpower I see how this can make the Germans pretty strong. In my game with him his transports got shot down in droves trying to supply his guys on Sardinia and to a lesser extent on the frontline around Rome.

I'm still not sure you see the problem. You don't need the planes to drop supplies. You need the planes to trigger a resupply phase.

In my game with AWG he was putting a lot of interdiction on my invasion beaches and I would take hundreds of casualties every time I flew a supply mission.
I wonder how sustainable those frontline depots are if you are paying double to resupply?

Double what? Do you mean allowing units to draw double (or triple, or quadruple, etc.) from the supply stock? I'd rather 'pay the price' of having ammo in my units on the frontline than seeing a number showing me how much is stored there before we get pushed behind it. As people get better at the WA ground interdiction game we'll get a better look at how the supply system strains, but it appears to me that the (bugged?) air supply logistics trigger circumvents much of what it tries to accomplish.

I think you can get 20k stored in a depot So theoretically that could last several turns.

Depends entirely on the resources of the depot location:

The maximum storage capacity of tons of freight for Western Allies depots is equal to ((60k*port level)+(20k*rail level), and the maximum storage capacity of tons of freight for Axis depots is equal to ((15k*port level)+(20k*rail level).
For example, an Axis level 2 port with a level 1 railyard would have a capacity of 2x15 + 1x20 = 50k tons, but if it was an Allied controlled port, it would be 2x60 + 1x20 = 140k tons.

I guess it would boil down to how much freight you can get to the front and how fast you use it up.
Doing a lot of movement in high level interdiction sounds dangerous but maybe it is not as harsh as I remember it being.

I know it does wear on readiness, but I'd rather try to swim through WA ground interdiction with 40+ MPs, wouldn't you?

Good point on the airstrips. Maybe that is something that they should look at. Maybe reducing freight delivery depending on how big the airstrip is, 3 = full, 2 = 2/3, 1= 1/3.

Again, the problem is not how much freight is delivered.
Ignore the plane aspect entirely and think about the effects of allowing a player to decide they want to run an additional ground supply phases for selected units. There were fairly significant admin point costs for HQBU in WitE, and the HQ had to not move. Paying nothing or maybe 1 admin point to rerun the supply phase for all the units in a 7 hex area of my choosing seems pretty light in comparison.

I think the disbursement from an existing ground depot if that is the same hex the air supply is delivered to probably isn't a problem, because the map itself limits the location of depots to some degree (I'm more familiar with Italy thus far). It's being able to create 'temporary depots' that trigger a draw on the rest of the ground supply grid for air supply that I think can be overpowering if put to good effect.

I guess I can use my on-going games to demonstrate if there is a problem. Perhaps I'll be rolled anyway, but so far I just don't see much in the way of drawbacks for the Axis player to do this. The Allied player faces steeper costs in that he has legit other uses for his transport fleet, and lacks 'nub' LB wings to waste supply runs on for this to trigger (although I suppose it could be a use for Bomber Command's old airframes...)

[Baelfiin]

Double what? Do you mean allowing units to draw double (or triple, or quadruple, etc.) from the supply stock? I'd rather 'pay the price' of having ammo in my units on the frontline than seeing a number showing me how much is stored there before we get pushed behind it. As people get better at the WA ground interdiction game we'll get a better look at how the supply system strains, but it appears to me that the (bugged?) air supply logistics trigger circumvents much of what it tries to accomplish.


I read it as drawing supply at double the cost in freight.

I understand the mechanic of triggering the resupply.

Can you actually see units that are 3 hexes away from a depot getting resupplied?

My reading of the rule is that it should be adjacent only to the drop, but maybe I am misunderstanding.

I personally would love to see what happens to Germans running around in level 9 interdictions. It used to be very very bad, but maybe it is no big deal now.