Tales from the First Time -DanSez (J) vs Przemcio231 (A) - no Przemcio231 please

[DanSez]

R&D report as of the end of day 16 Dec, 1941

Current focus:
5x(30) A6M3 factories running. Do you think this will be enough to drive the Zero production for the long term?
3x(30) Ki-49 Ia Hellen (will roll up the chain to get those armored Helens as soon as I can)
2x(30) Ki-84a Frank
2x(30) N1K1-J George

Other notes:
1x(30) Ki-43-IIa Oscar
1x(30) Ki-45 KAIa Nick

1x(30) D3A2 Vals
1x(30) D4Y1 Judy
1x(30) D4Y1-C Judy -- is this a bad move doing both Judy planes?

1x(40?) J1N1-C Irving -- a fatigue mistake increasing to 40, and you don't get an UNDO button with the industry screen.

a general warning - I've read before but didn't follow:
Save your game before doing any dinking with the Industry Screen so that if you do muck it up, you can just exit the game and reload from the save... another proof of that wisdom.

There are a lot of other research lines to open up and get going. I hope to have them all engaged by the 20th of Dec game.


Do I have this premise correct:
Of the 3x(30) Helen research factories, when they are 100pct repaired and the data for the actual production is about a month away, I can switch the R&D from the first Helen to the next one up the chain and there will be no destroyed factories.
That means I will still have 3x(30).
I am curious if those factories will still be repaired or will the go from
Helen 30(0) (all repaired/none disabled)
to
Helen 0(30) (none repaired/all disabled)

If the remain repaired, then starting down the chain and working up is better than having 3 sets of factories, each researching one step up the chain at the same time.

[Lowpe]

Quick reply, the armored Helen isn't that great an improvement. By the time she comes around you will be bombing only in China most likely. They still die like flies if caught by Allied fighters.

[setloz]

I wouldn't drop any points into the second Val (same small bomb load & shorter range) and instead go broke for the Judy.
Iirc D4Y3 has the Ha33 engine and that would make it easy to obtain the engine bonus without bothering with the Aichi Ha60.

Question: why bother with J1N1-C recon plane research? You could spend the 30x1100 supplies on something that would help your war effort: fighter or bomber/torpedo.
Or, the night fighter J1N1-S.

As Lowpe was saying, pick a few planes based on what they can help your war effort and research those very heavily to get them as early as possible.

[DanSez]

I think I have already made a series of mistakes in trying to get something up and running -- even with my advice of taking it slow, I still fumbled.

The A6M3 is a land based Zero?
I recall a number of discussions about the Sembuka(sp?) version and avoiding a production trap.

Thanks setloz, I've got some head scratching to do.

[DanSez]

I am not clear about which planes are in which research lines. (ie: the A6M3)

I thought all Irving planes were in the same so that if I want the later Irving Night Fighter, if I research the earlier Recon version, I could switch fully repaired factories over to the next one and they would remain repaired.

Is that premise false?
thanks

[DanSez]

Dec 08, 1941 Combat Reports ---

Not so good results in Manilla:
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 33
G4M1 Betty x 27

Allied aircraft
P-40B Warhawk x 18
P-40E Warhawk x 48

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 7 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Warhawk: 1 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 2 destroyed

Runway hits 4
Looks like my opponent concentrated his fighters over one hex hoping I would come knocking (an early attempt at a Cap Trap?)
The AI never did that![:@]


And a sweep over Rangoon I should have paid more attention to:
Morning Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11

Allied aircraft
H81-A3 x 53

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed


In other headlines:
Japanese forces CAPTURE Laoag !!!
Japanese forces CAPTURE Makin !!!

[Lowpe]

Yeah, a few messups but everyone does it.[:)] So far the cost to switch is minimal. I wouldn't waste any repairs on the C Irving for example.

Are all five of those A6M3 factories fully repaired? The formula is to create size 30 factories on an actual current production model, and then when it is fully repaired advance it to the next version, and so on down the line, one step at a time, until you get to the version you want early and viola your are r&d the A6M5c with five fully repaired factories in 30 days. With engine bonus that advances 1 month every 10 or so days.


There is a powerpoint document that illustrates the upgrade path somewhere on the forum. Very helpful. I have it on another computer, will try to get it put up here.

For now, I would focus on getting some factories to size 30 repaired for Oscar and Zero. Why? They are multigenerational planes and you can have all those producing factories (turn off production if you have enough plans, but let them repair) moved along to r&d future versions of the Zero and Oscar a great time savings.

I would look at expanding HA35 engines to get the r&d bonus...in Zeroes and Oscars. Just not go crazy.

I think the biggest focus is for you get your head around the fighters. Without fighters it doesn't matter what your bombers are like. If you can gain air superiority by focusing on a select few fighters (army, navy, cv) that will see you a long way.

My focus in this type of game would be to get an armored fighter for both Army and Navy fast. Most likely Oscar and Zero. I would also work very hard on George or Jack for the Navy (when they come on line you can trash Lightning sweeps). For the Army I would skip the Tony line all together and go for Frank a which upgrades to Frank r. Five size 30 factories on Frank a isn't going overboard.

Then I would pick an end war uber plane whether it is conventional engine, jet, rocket, or the Shinden. Chose an Army and Navy version.

NF come in two versions: pre-b29 and post b29. Irving s and Nick d are fine for the first group, you want something better for the b29 though. Nick d and Irving s and KAI Dinah to start; Myrt and Frances NF are worth looking at too for the end. The Irving s upgrades to the SA version with one more cannon and radar (when it activates) and is your first NF with radar even if it is god awful slow.

With what is left I would look at bombers/transports/floats/kamikazes. Grace would be at the top of my list, Judy because the Val really stinks.

Having played some I think r&d on this latter group is nice but not must have. I have even come to the conclusion that single engine bombers aren't that bad either, especially in China since they use less supply and still get the job done well enough and don't clutter airfields.

Did I mention I think fighters are the priority?[:D]

[witpqs]

Dan - you just gave us a new entry under "Famous Last Words"! [:D]

ORIGINAL: DanSez

The AI never did that![:@]

[DanSez]

R&D thoughts:

There are still many factories to commit to the mid-late war fighters and I plan on getting all of that in place by the 20th Dec, 1941 game turn.
Of the early/mid war planes, the Zero line is very important.
I have 5x(30) factories trying to repair the A6M3. These will mostly shift up to the next line in research all the way to the A6M8.
Also I have 1x(30) A6M2-N Rufe and another that will be expanded to x(30). Why? Because it looks like these factories could jump the A6M3x and start pushing the A6M5.

It looks like none of the night fighters are natural extensions of the air frame upgrades. I will be investing in a couple of mid/late war night fighters but will go more into that in a later post.

General Note and Plan Implication: Remember this is Realistic R&D OFF, so my plans will be different than what it would be with the restrictions ON. I can R&D a short plane line, let them go to production – switch the production factories into R&D (ie start researching SAM in mid 42) and the trade for the little bit of lost time then will be getting better planes in the air in the late 42/mid 43 battles.
That is my thought at this time. Comments and suggestions are very welcome.

[DanSez]

Other lines currently set for research:

Fighters:

Already mentioned A6Mx line – all the way to the end.
5x(30) - A6M3.

3x(30) – N1K1-J George. I am going the George route – all the way to the end of the line. No special R&D in the Jack line but I still might build a few just for flavor. I will add more sets for George.

1x(30) – Ki-43-IIa Oscar. Probably will fall into production and an earlier Oscar line might go into R&D. I need to think more on how much I will need Oscar and how soon I can step up to the next plane.

1x(30) -- Ki-44-IIa Tojo. This is another of those – get a next line going and then swap it out with a production line retiring/switching to R&D. Still thinking this part of the plan through.

1x(30) – Ki-45 KAIa Nick. It has a bigger cannon. I might add another line before it is completed so I can bump one set of factories into getting the Ki-45 KAIc.

2x(30) – Ki-84a Frank. I will probably add at least one more x(30) set before the end of December and then even more as the early ’42 production lines reach the end of their work.

[DanSez]

I have some questions about what is the best late war fighter(s).

For the Army, I plan on pushing the Frank to the end.
Ki-84r: 18 gun, 3 Service Level.

Is/are there other fighters that complement the Frank?

Contenders:
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 8 gun (very weak), 1 Service.
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 12 gun, 1 Service.
Ki-100-I Tony: 14 gun, 1 Service.
Ki-93-Ia: 19 gun, 4 Service (not much relief here).
Ki-102a Randy: 12 gun, 2 Service

For the Navy, I will push the Zero and George lines all the way to the
A6M8: gun 14, Service 1
N1K5-J: gun 22 (sweet), Service 3.

Do I need another fighter line for the navy and if so what other plane will work or compliment these two?

Contenders:
A7M2 Sam: gun 16, Service 2.
A7M3-J Sam: gun 30 (wow), Service 3.
J2M3 Jack: gun 16, Service 2,
J7W1 Shinden: gun 20, Service 3.

[DanSez]

Bomber Lines:

1x(30) D3A2 Val – which will be switched to research D5Y1 Myojo (800kg Dive Bomber) – can these be used for Kami? Hopefully that would leave a mark.

2x(30) B6N1 Jill – and I might add another depending on how much I focus on the late war planes. Carry on to the B6N2, then split between production and a switch to a late war fighter.

3x(30) D4Y1- Judy – carry on to the D4Y2 line R&D – or should I just take the damage and skip the D4Y2 and go for the D4Y3 (service level 1) – then the D4Y4 with an 800kg bomb. I may add another x(30) factory.

1x(30) D4Y1-C – Judy Recon (these will probably go directly into production and I would replace the R&D with some production line that comes to an end – focusing on a late war night fighter. I don’t see any reason to invest in the D4Y2-C.

1x(30) – Ki-115a Tsurugi. I have read a lot of recommendations on this plane so I will invest a set of factories now and may add to this later as other lines end.

3x(30) – Ki-49 1a Helen. Going to replace the Lilly with this as early as I can hoping this helps in the battles over Burma and Australia.

1x(30) P1Y1 Frances. Important mid war bomber, the replacement for Nell. I may add more.

No thoughts yet beyond these models. Is there an important late war bomber I am missing?

[DanSez]

Night Fighters:

The only one I currently am investing in is

1x(30) J1N1-S Irving Night Fighter. May add a second x(30).

There are other important night fighters. It doesn't look like any of them are part of the main frame production lines so they will have to be build without that benefit.

Resources are finite. I believe have enough R&D factories to add a couple of 5x(30)s or so.

What am I overlooking? I understand the argument of putting a whole bunch of research into just a couple of lines. Maybe that is the way to get the best results, but since I have mostly second hand knowledge by way of reading others' AARs, I've got to find my own way. Any words of wisdom from the reader will be appreciated and given full consideration.

[DanSez]

Back to the War...

Dec 8th review:
The Cap Trap over Manilla and running into the Flying Tigers over Rangoon cost me a bunch of Bettys (almost 30) and quiet a few Nells (about 15). My sweeps didn't fly, or flew late for some reason.

Dec 9th, 1941
I few mostly sweeps into Manilla and Rangoon but the fox has jumped the fence and I was just shooting at the weeds.

But not all is a waste as ground pounding in Malaysia and China reap some small rewards.
Small plots of land exchange ownership:

Itbayat Island is occupied by the Japanese

Japanese forces CAPTURE Kota Bharu !!!
Japanese forces CAPTURE Ocean Island !!!
Japanese forces CAPTURE Tarawa !!!

In the opening of a long ASW campaign:
********************************
ASW attack near Aparri at 82,73
Allied Ships
SS S-40, hits 2

********************************
Sub attack near Kota Bharu at 51,75
Japanese Ships
xAK Asakasan Maru, Torpedo hits 1
Allied Ships
SS KXI, hits 3

Damn Dutch Sub...

********************************
Sub attack near Laoag at 81,72


Japanese Ships
No ships damaged
Allied Ships
SS S-38, hits 1

********************************
ASW attack near Patani at 51,73
Japanese Ships
No ships damaged
Allied Ships
SS KXII, hits 3

********************************
ASW attack near Singora at 51,72
Japanese Ships
No ships damaged
Allied Ships
SS KXVII, hits 4
Keeel that Devil...

[DanSez]

Tracker report of ships sunk (reported thru Dec 9th, 1941)

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: DanSez


I have some questions about what is the best late war fighter(s).

For the Army, I plan on pushing the Frank to the end.
Ki-84r: 18 gun, 3 Service Level.

Is/are there other fighters that complement the Frank?

Contenders:
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 8 gun (very weak), 1 Service.
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 12 gun, 1 Service.
Ki-100-I Tony: 14 gun, 1 Service.
Ki-93-Ia: 19 gun, 4 Service (not much relief here).
Ki-102a Randy: 12 gun, 2 Service

For the Navy, I will push the Zero and George lines all the way to the
A6M8: gun 14, Service 1
N1K5-J: gun 22 (sweet), Service 3.

Do I need another fighter line for the navy and if so what other plane will work or compliment these two?

Contenders:
A7M2 Sam: gun 16, Service 2.
A7M3-J Sam: gun 30 (wow), Service 3.
J2M3 Jack: gun 16, Service 2,
J7W1 Shinden: gun 20, Service 3.

Late war Army fighters: Conventional: Ki-94-II; twin engine Ki83. Jet or Rocket. Frank r will have a tough time in 45.

Navy fighters the Sam. Shinden. Rocket.

Rockets are unknown, the Ki201 seems decent in Downfall, but can be swamped by overwhelming Allied air strength. Built in very large numbers, it could change the game, but can you afford to build a twin engine plane in those kind of quantities?

Doesn't the Ki93 take a really oddball engine too, I think? Big gun, but horrible accuracy, and getting the plane past escorts to hit bombers would be tough. Still, an interesting bird.

Mr Kane vs Greyjoy AAR had Shinden very early, and also the Ki94II too I seem to recall. Gave the Allies fits.

The Army fighters you mention: Tony, Oscar, Randy are all decent 43 fighters, Tojo is long in the tooth in 43. By late 43 you need Frank r. In 44 you need better.

My thoughts.[:)]

ps: read the very end of Obvert vs Jocke AAR. Lots of good advice for someone that lived until July 45 in a scenario 1 game.

[DanSez]

Dec 10, 1941

How do you handle the situation where house rules are ignored?
The game is just getting started and this happens:

Night Time Surface Combat, near Tarawa at 136,128, Range 11,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
PB Santos Maru, Shell hits 31, and is sunk
xAKL Toyotsu Maru, Shell hits 12, and is sunk
xAK Aratama Maru, Shell hits 18, and is sunk
xAKL Katsura Maru, Shell hits 13, and is sunk
xAKL Kaito Maru, Shell hits 11, and is sunk
xAKL Tenposan Maru, Shell hits 22, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CA Pensacola

When I asked about how this happened, my opponent admitted he just cut the Pensacola loose and sent it running in to destroy this task force.

The rule was:
Any Offensive Taskforce must have 3 ships or more.
How hard is that to follow? Jesus...

I decided to try and negotiate some small penance this time, but I have a general rule
DON'T PLAY IF IT BECOMES FRUSTRATING///

And that comes down to this:
If some rule, or even spirit of the rule if I get annoyed enough, is violated for the third time, I end the game.
That would be a shame, but I don't want to play if I can't trust my opponent to follow the same rules.

I don't think this is a case of blatant cheating. Most likely it is just ignorance. Ignorance can be cured with teaching and patience. It is neither fatal nor uncommon.

Still it begs the question: why would one accept house rules, especially if the opponent is being particular in spelling them out -- and then just ignore them.

The negotiated settlement (which I have to trust he has followed):
CA Pensacola must retreat to a West Coast port for 1 turn
The rest of that task force the CA came from must retreat to Suba or Fiji for 1 turn.
He has to deposit 10k or so of supply on Lunga.

Pretty light punishment after further review.

Hopefully this is the only incidence.

[DanSez]

Dec 10, 1941 ---
In other news:
Aparri is occupied by the Japanese
Japanese forces CAPTURE Vigan !!!

*** Sub Wars ***
Sub attack near Aparri at 82,73
Japanese Ships
DMS W-16, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
Allied Ships
SS S-41, hits 5

****************
Submarine attack near Billiton at 53,92
Japanese Ships
SS I-153
Allied Ships
TK Strix, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

***************
Japanese Ships
CA Takao
DD Asashio
DD Hibiki
DD Akatsuki

Allied Ships
SS KXII, hits 22, and is sunk

**************
ASW attack near Laoag at 81,72
Japanese Ships
DD Inazuma

Allied Ships
SS S-38, hits 6

**************
Submarine attack near Tandjoengpinang at 50,85
Japanese Ships
SS I-121

Allied Ships
TK Pleiodon, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage

**************
ASW attack near Vigan at 80,73
Japanese Ships
DD Minegumo
DD Harusame
DD Murasame

Allied Ships
SS S-37, hits 1

**************

Forces gather and start Bombardment of Hong Kong.
Ground combat at Hong Kong (77,61)

Japanese Bombardment attack
Attacking force 19281 troops, 315 guns, 202 vehicles, Assault Value = 633 (more coming)

Defending force 6595 troops, 126 guns, 80 vehicles, Assault Value = 229

Allied ground losses:
79 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 9 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

[DanSez]

Dec 10, 1941 (cont)
In game management time:
I am just now getting thru the last of the Mongolian/Korean/Manchuuko/Japanese cities.

It has been a LONG slog (over 45 hours invested) with most of my time pouring over spreadsheets and to do list than looking at the map, which made the incident at Tarawa even more disappointing.

[DanSez]

Dec 10, 1941 post turn discussions:

The issue of Air Group resizing was raised.
I brought it up as it wasn't specifically mentioned.

The limit is 30 max on resizing any air units.
In the Kull spreadsheet it calls for a few larger resized units and I know that is a disputed subject - best to get it out in the open now.