Puzzling detail in air combat

[RogerJNeilson]

If I am in air to air combat over a hex where I am the attacker I get info on which units the enemy planes are from. If I am in air to air combat over a hex where I am the defender I don't get this info.

I cannot see a logic to this.

Roger

[HansBolter]

In the old days you used to get a report of which squadron attacking planes were from when you were defending.

It gave away intel on which enemy carriers were striking you and it was changed to stop doing this.

I have noticed sometimes I still get a report of what squadron enemy planes are from but haven't paid enough attention to tell whether it is happening when attacking or defending.

[RogerJNeilson]

Example 1 - Allies defending airspace:

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Trinkat at 44,64 Weather in hex: Light rain Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 14 minutes Japanese aircraft G4M1 Betty x 23 Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 3 Allied aircraft P-39D Airacobra x 8 Japanese aircraft losses G4M1 Betty: 3 destroyed, 5 damaged G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed by flak Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed No Allied losses Allied Ships xAP Wakefield CL Trenton Aircraft Attacking: 6 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo 3 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo CAP engaged: 12th FS with P-39D Airacobra (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) (8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.) 6 plane(s) intercepting now. 0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 15000 Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes ,

Example 2 - Japanese defending airspace:

Morning Air attack on Hankow, at 85,50 Weather in hex: Light rain Raid detected at 38 NM, estimated altitude 37,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 9 minutes Japanese aircraft Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 15 Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 3 Allied aircraft Hurricane IIb Trop x 4 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 1 destroyed No Allied losses CAP engaged: 70th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 4 scrambling) 3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 20000, scrambling fighters between 16000 and 31000. Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes 45th I. F.Chutai with Ki-45 KAIa Nick (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) 0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 15000 Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes 54th Sentai with Ki-44-IIa Tojo (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 1 scrambling) 4 plane(s) intercepting now. Group patrol altitude is 15000, scrambling fighters between 28170 and 35000. Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes ,

As far as I can see its a consistent feature

Roger

[witpqs]

Try posting in tech support in case Michael intended to pull it out from both examples??

[RogerJNeilson]

Good point, will post there too

Roger

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

If I am in air to air combat over a hex where I am the attacker I get info on which units the enemy planes are from. If I am in air to air combat over a hex where I am the defender I don't get this info.

I cannot see a logic to this.

Roger

There is a logic.


1. Back on 20 Jan 2011 theElf made the following statement

[center]"One of our challenges is actually communicating the results of a particular combat such that the player can understand why it succeeded or failed."[/center]

This principle applies to all game messages/info. It is particularly applicable to the case in question.


2. The Combat Report is given to both sides. Both sides see the same info. A single format is displayed irrespective of whether one is attacking or defending. The coding work to generate different formats is just not cost effective.


3. The CR always provides much more detailed info on defending CAP than it does on the attacking airplanes. This is precisely because, in keeping with point 1 above, the much more useful info to assist a player to understand and learn from the combat, is that derived from the CAP data. Both the attacker and defender derive the most benefit from the CR provided CAP info.


4. On the attacker, the CR provides four basic datum points which the player can analyse to see what future adjustments in force dispositions might be appropriate:

(a) the estimated altitude of the incoming attacking aircraft

This info is very "rubbery" but it does give hints about aircraft coordination, or lack thereof. Also gives hints to the defender as to where the enemy main height focus is, useful when you consider that attacking aircraft may be approaching at varying altitudes but there is only room for a single height to be identified.

(b) the estimated time to target

Can give a hint to the attacker of the quality of defending radar. Also ties in with (a) above

(c) weather conditions

Useful for visual sighting cues, especially when flying staggered CAP. Or why the results were underwhelming

(d) the actual altitude at which the ordnance was delivered

This is by far the most valuable attacking info which the defender needs to know in order to make future adjustments. It discloses the attack profiles such as whether dive or glide or level bombing was involved; whether the attackers were flying at normal or extended range. It is really the only "free" info on the attacker which the defender receives. The only other "free" info the defender gets is outside of the CR , being in the combat animation phase when flight lines are disclosed and the combat graphics messages.


5. There is no need to provide the identity of the attacking units on the CR because the attacker already knows who they are and point (4)(d) above serves as an aide memoire. There is much less variety in attacking altitudes than there is for defending CAP, as ultimately it is only the delivery altitude which matters. To identify the attacking units themselves can disclose to the defender important unknown info which is not part of the specific battle landscape.


6. On the defender, the CR provides the same as 4(a), 4(b), and 4(c). The "free" info on the defender which the attacker receives, is the quite detailed info on how the CAP is structured. Here info is provided on:

• patrolling altitude
• number airborne, on standby, being recalled etc
• time to intercept

This is important info for both sides and allows for both players to improve their play. That the defending CAP units are identified is valuable info to the defending player when multiple defending units, flying the same aircraft model, are involved. Without this info it would be much harder to know which units need adjustments.


7. Some attacking air units are identified in the combat animation. Whenever an aircraft (be it enemy escorting fighter or enemy bomber) drops out of combat because it failed a morale check, it's unit is identified. Note however that enemy aircraft forced to turn back due to battle damage or fuel shortage (edit: left out that these aircraft do not disclose their unit name). OTOH, attacking bomber units are identified in certain attack missions in the combat animation. All this is very revealing info not available from the CR itself. Only those few players who closely watch the combat animation get to see this. Just relying on the CR has never been sufficient to understand the combat results.


There are many things abstracted into the game to improve its playability. Other things are abstracted to fit them better into the legacy code. This is one of them. If this info were not provided to the player there would be more vociferous complaints from players not understanding their combat results and being blind to how to make adjustments. Not for the first time the devs have provided valuable game feedback. Remember at it's core, AE is a game, not a simulation.

Alfred

[RogerJNeilson]

As always incredibly illuminating.

So if I want to really get into the air stuff I have to slow the combat right down and note everything.


Or else just live like I have done for many years.....

Thank you for taking the time Alfred.

Roger