Do you want bombing VPs? Hit Heavy Industry

[Smirfy]

ORIGINAL: Balou

Still it would like to know to what extent allied strat bombing did (help to) knock out Germany. History experts please step in, there should be figures.

In 1942 German ammuntion production doubled, in 1943 Harris launched the Battle of the Ruhr and heavily disrupted it. Amunition production only increased 20% during 43. Amunition being directly linked to steel output. This disruption of heavy industry caused what was called a "Sub component crisis" which affected Industry across the Riech. The Aircraft Industry for instance achieved no monthly increase in output between July 43 and March 44.

Interestingly German Bomber production halves in 44 and Nightfighter production increase 3 fold obviously they were planning to defeat the Russians with more Nightfighters. Or maybe it was the 12 odd thousand 109's produced in 44 Because the Russian Front was the only place they were not obselete.

The strategic offensive defined how Germany could fight the war

[Ralzakark]

ORIGINAL: Balou

Still it would like to know to what extent allied strat bombing did (help to) knock out Germany. History experts please step in, there should be figures.

I am away for a few days so haven't got time to dig out the figures today, but the direct effects of allied bombing were threefold.

Adam Tooze's study of the German economy has shown how Bomber Command seriously damaged it in 1943. The stereotype of British bombing as only aiming to break German morale is not very accurate, and area bombing of the Ruhr was one of the main reasons why armaments production stagnated in the second half of 1943.

The grounding of the Luftwaffe through the destruction of its fuel sources is better known. See 'Oil as a factor in the German war effort 1933-1945’ for details. Robert Ehlers ‘Targeting the Third Reich’ looks at the interplay between intelligence, targeting and bombing and has plenty of evidence about how seriously the lack of fuel affected the German war effort.

The transportation plan which started later but then ran in parallel with the oil offensive weakened German industry from October 1944 and induced its collapse in 1945. From then on it was rapidly consuming its existing stocks of raw materials. Speer estimated that if the bombing had stopped in September 1944 that German could have resisted into early 1946. Alfred Mierzejewski’s study of the impact of the transportation plan is a good source.

Richard Overy's 'War and Economy in the Third Reich' is also a good source. It quotes a German study from January 1945 which estimated that bombing had led to a reduction in 1944 of 35% tank, 31% aircraft and 42% lorry production.

[JeffroK]

Balou

Use that wonderful resource, the Internet, or your local library, and do the research yourself to find your opinion of the effect of strat bombing.

Here's a starter
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/index.html

[Balou]

Thanks a lot.

[Ralzakark]

Or you could ask here of course. There are a lot of knowlegable people on this forum [:)]

[jhdeerslayer]

One thing I wondered, how worth it is it to bomb during the bad winter months where conditions are Very Poor? I've been resting my WA air fleet during bad weather.

[Balou]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/index.html

Just came across this one (while thinking about strat bombing in WitW) - it's from your link:

" ... Nevertheless, the recuperative and defensive powers of Germany were immense; the speed and ingenuity with which they rebuilt and maintained essential war industries in operation clearly surpassed Allied expectations. Germany resorted to almost every means an ingenious people could devise to avoid the attacks upon her economy and to minimize their effects..."

[carlkay58]

The heavy bombers don't fly in bad weather so it does not matter if you assign them to missions or not - if the weather is Very Poor they do not fly.

[Fallschirmjager]

One of the issues that the Germans faced is that they were still producing heavy quantities of material but could not get it to key places.
By late 1944, the Saar region had mountains of coal but the transportation system was so wrecked that many German areas froze because it could not be moved to where it was needed.

In my last game I tried to focus on the rail network with day and night and even tactical bombing. It was hard to tell the effects if there were indeed any.

I have no idea how resources flow into factories or if they even do at all or instead factories just take what they need if they are available and don't have to worry about the transporting them.

[Mickrocks201]

It was due to the wrecked transportation system that Hitler required his army to defend so hard in FRONT of the Rhine near the Rurh... River barges was the only way left to move resources. Cost many troops that could have been better deployed to defend against Rhine crossing by the allies.

[Mickrocks201]

So in reading this discussion, bombing oil and fuel will not cause Axis problems, only gain VP? Axis will never run out no matter Ho hard you bomb?

[NotOneStepBack]

16 VPs last turn!

[Balou]

Hasn't been proven, but yes, it's an educated guess. In fact, it would, as I have learned is this forum, rather reflect historical realities. Maybe it's gonna work in the oil/fuel business. But lots of (WA) people - including myself - still fiddle around to improve their air war skills.

[Mickrocks201]

Ah, so it is just as abstract as uboat and v-weapon Bombing. VP management only. Sort of disappointing to find this out... I always like to bomb oil & fuel figuring it would impact the Luftwaffe, but I guess best to just follow the lead outlined here and BTF out of HI.

[LiquidSky]

Don't forget that bombing vps goes down as the war moves along. Although I suppose you can make up some of that as you have more bombers and less interceptors to worry about

[Balou]

What I'm trying to say: from what I've seen no WA player has SO FAR been able to cripple an axis production line. As for me, could be I am not good enough YET. Game is out only for a couple of weeks, and hopefully there is a lot more to discover. You may be right, but I think we should try to find out.

[Fallschirmjager]

ORIGINAL: Balou

What I'm trying to say: from what I've seen no WA player has SO FAR been able to cripple an axis production line. As for me, could be I am not good enough YET. Game is out only for a couple of weeks, and hopefully there is a lot more to discover. You may be right, but I think we should try to find out.

I am not looking to cripple the Axis. Just impact them, even like a across the board 5% reduction in fighting effectiveness. But it is hard to know if any combination of what I am doing is actually having any sort of effect.

[NotOneStepBack]

Also, it matters more to hit as many targets as you can, instead of inflicting a lot of damage on one. The VP calculation works so that if a factory is damaged at all, even with 1%, it will count, just like u-boats.

I have been ignoring bomber losses in general, they don't seem to matter too much.

[Balou]

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

But it is hard to know if any combination of what I am doing is actually having any sort of effect.

That's precisely what I'm trying to find out. And as a starter, I focus on one asset, try to maximize damage and see what happens.

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

The VP calculation works so that if a factory is damaged at all, even with 1%, it will count, just like u-boats.

Getting VPs for barely scratching the roof of a U-Boat pen, that's a VP System that is hard to understand. So far, I don't care for VPs. In my recent GC I was ahead of (historical) datelines in every department except Italy north of Rome, went as requested after the U-Boat factories, bombed the hell out of VWS and most of the VWF, visited Berlin in mid March 45, had no excess casualties, giving an impressive -79 VPs. Final result: a minor victory just because of some bonus points.

[decourcy2]

Balou, others, your are mistaken on the VP's. Bombing VP's are size of factory multiplied by (damage in % divided by 1000). Thus, if a factory has 100% damage you will get 100 times more score for it.