If the Japanese did not build the Super-Battleships...

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Symon
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RE: If the Japanese did not build the Super-Battleships...

Post by Symon »

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
John: How would YOU build a 'modern' Kai BB?
I would do much the same as Juan did. If I was doing a Kai Kii, I would modernize the tower much the same as in the ¡¦43 Amagi. Certainly increase armor like Juan did (240mm belt to 405mm, etc). That would be enough (barely) to give you an immune zone starting at around 20,000m for the 16.1¡¨/45. A 200mm deck is quite adequate.

This would, fur shur, up the displacement, so need to up the HP a bit. Make all boilers oil fired. There can be fewer boilers, so you get some displacement recovery there. You get steam a bit hotter, so with some turbine fiddling, you can get, maybe, 5% more HP from the plant (131,000 „³ 138,000 SHP). Keeps speed at around 30 kts.

I would keep the original armament layout; two twins forward, three twins aft (one being technically center). This is because I would want 10 barrels so as to have an advantage over the US 8 gun 16¡¨ BBs (Colorados). I like to spread out the turrets and magazines, so as to spread out the target area, and also decentralize the firing stress on the ship when everything goes off in battery.

As I said, much as Juan would do for the Owari class, but with a different gun layout. But that¡¦s just personal preference. Oh, and I don¡¦t like casemate guns, so I would put the 12cm/45s on deck with shields or maybe turrets. Can¡¦t use a gun as a DP if it¡¦s in a casemate.

That¡¦s about it. Ciao. JWE
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RE: If the Japanese did not build the Super-Battleships...

Post by DeltaV112 »

ORIGINAL: Symon

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
John: How would YOU build a 'modern' Kai BB?
I would do much the same as Juan did. If I was doing a Kai Kii, I would modernize the tower much the same as in the ¡¦43 Amagi. Certainly increase armor like Juan did (240mm belt to 405mm, etc). That would be enough (barely) to give you an immune zone starting at around 20,000m for the 16.1¡¨/45. A 200mm deck is quite adequate.

This would, fur shur, up the displacement, so need to up the HP a bit. Make all boilers oil fired. There can be fewer boilers, so you get some displacement recovery there. You get steam a bit hotter, so with some turbine fiddling, you can get, maybe, 5% more HP from the plant (131,000 „³ 138,000 SHP). Keeps speed at around 30 kts.

I would keep the original armament layout; two twins forward, three twins aft (one being technically center). This is because I would want 10 barrels so as to have an advantage over the US 8 gun 16¡¨ BBs (Colorados). I like to spread out the turrets and magazines, so as to spread out the target area, and also decentralize the firing stress on the ship when everything goes off in battery.

As I said, much as Juan would do for the Owari class, but with a different gun layout. But that¡¦s just personal preference. Oh, and I don¡¦t like casemate guns, so I would put the 12cm/45s on deck with shields or maybe turrets. Can¡¦t use a gun as a DP if it¡¦s in a casemate.

That¡¦s about it. Ciao. JWE
10 barrels in 5x2 turrets is a poor choice, both 9 barrels in 3x3 and even 12 barrels in 3x4 are likely to be lighter and shorter in length(4x2 is generally inferior to 3x3 as well). Either way, it works out to a ship that displaces about 48,000 tons. Even with Yamato's hull shaping improvements, you'll need slightly more than 138,000 shp to reach 30 kts. Probably around 145,000.

Juan's design is pretty conservative, you can definitely stuff an extra turret in that displacement if you're willing to shed a little bit of armor or speed.

In case you're wondering about the comparison to Montana, which would have a similar 4x3 turret layout, we're able to shed so much weight because Montana was armored significantly more, in particular the heavier decks, turret armor, barbettes, etc. Having much better hydrodynamic properties in addition to this means better speed on less power.
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Symon
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RE: If the Japanese did not build the Super-Battleships...

Post by Symon »

You seem to be a simple wargame weenie talking about simple wargame weenie things. The detail in this forum is beyond simple wargame weenie nonsense. Almost all of your statements are wrong. You obviously know nothing about real ship design or real armament dispositions

You are clearly a troll with nothing to add to the discussion. Your statements on ship design/performance parameters are laughable. My SNAME (Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers) number is 37613. What’s your’s?

[ed] If you want to play on these threads, then you need to learn. If you don't want to learn, then go play on the main board, or go somewhere else.
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RE: If the Japanese did not build the Super-Battleships...

Post by Rising-Sun »

If I was Yamamoto and I would find a way to turn this around, instead of building those Yamatos, with all that tonnages I would build carriers, five or six of them. Of course you will need good crew of pilots and planes to complete the role. Yamamoto knew that carrier borne aircrafts would rule the skies and if you can rule the skies you also take advantage of sea and land too.

Yamamoto also wanted something to go beyond their sub range, the 1-400 example. The way I see it, it a bad idea. First of all, the sub is too big and hard to maneuver and it can get sunk much easier than regular subs. If Yamamoto wasn't killed in action back then, not sure what it would be like. But after his death, they postpone the I-400 plans by one year or longer. Beside you couldn't do much with three floatplanes on each of these big sub. But if they manage to get their hands on Biological Agents, like the Anthrax it could be fatal before they even stop it. Huge population loses on both East and West Coast of US.
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RE: If the Japanese did not build the Super-Battleships...

Post by DeltaV112 »

ORIGINAL: Symon

You seem to be a simple wargame weenie talking about simple wargame weenie things. The detail in this forum is beyond simple wargame weenie nonsense. Almost all of your statements are wrong. You obviously know nothing about real ship design or real armament dispositions

You are clearly a troll with nothing to add to the discussion. Your statements on ship design/performance parameters are laughable. My SNAME (Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers) number is 37613. What’s your’s?

[ed] If you want to play on these threads, then you need to learn. If you don't want to learn, then go play on the main board, or go somewhere else.
Mind saying anything about why I'm wrong, instead of engaging in a transparent and meaningless personal attack? This sort of thing always reflects poorly on you. It is sort of funny though that you seem to hate "wargame weenies" so much.

EDIT: The 4x3 design would be very close to the Battleship H study for the Number 13 class. That was planned for 30kts with 12 16" guns. Developments in hull shaping would let you drop the engine size and increase armoring. There's also the A-140J3, which had more armor and displaces 58,000. So 48,000-50,000 is reasonable for 4x3, if you're willing to accept less than cutting-edge protection.
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RE: If the Japanese did not build the Super-Battleships...

Post by John 3rd »

Just fired a query off to Juan to see if his sources might have any info regarding real plans drawn up for a Japanese BB and BC in the mid-30s.
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RE: If the Japanese did not build the Super-Battleships...

Post by el cid again »

First of all, of course, the Japanese DID consider alternative Yamato class designs
including several with 16 in gun armament. There were something like 23 variations
fully worked up before the decision was taken to lay down Yamato herself. Oddly,
only the first and last had full steam propulsion - every one in between had CODAS -
combined diesel and steam. Experiments with the Diesel engines led to misgivings -
what if the engines had to be replaced after the armor deck was in place? Further,
the two pure steam plants differed significantly: the first one contemplated 200,000
ship - the one adopted only 3/4 of that. But all shared the same hull - except insofar
as bow shape and propeller design was modified (and the changes would have been used
regardless of other aspects of the selected configurations).

While your concept seems to be to save steel - which you correctly identify as a limiting
factor in military (not just ship) production - you might want to consider the alternative
Yamato's themselves. This because the 16 inch gun offers several advantages over the 18 inch.
It has virtually the same range. It could fire the same ammunition as the Nagato class did.
This permits rearming at many more points than the 18 inch - limited (correctly) to only two
by AE code. The 18 inch was in fact too big, creating too much overpressure, a problem for
ships boats and aircraft, requiring additional cost of protective storage to address. These
guns could not be fired in broadside - and in fact no 18 inch gun ship ever did. The Yamato's
fired turret salvos in sequence - reducing their already fairly low rate of fire. The 16 inch
guns could fire salvos. In addition, more shells could be carried. One of the considered
configurations was four turrets of three guns - which is also 33% more than the Yamato with
three triples. Finally - if the original steam plant were used - the ship would have a higher
speed - and more range - than the class as built. A faster ship, firing more rounds per unit
of time, from more tubes, starts to become very interesting. Only the Kongo's could keep up
with fast carriers - but this battleship could - with far more protection, punch and AAA capability.
Not often mentioned, Yamato's also permitted communications technology due to their size and practical
antenna size- they could intercept signals farther off than other ships.

In lieu of these ships the battlecruiser solution sounds more reasonable than it is. They at least could
escort fast carriers. But they would not be cheap enough - nor would less shipyard capacity have been tied up -
and they would need actually MORE engines than the class as built did (160,000 shp vs 150,000)! You don't
get more ships, or significantly less slipway tie up - but these ships are vastly less well protected and
have significantly less firepower. What you do get is what you wanted to get: steel - about half as much steel -
over 30,000 tons per ship. These ships are probably not worth their cost. As well, they were not designed soon
enough to be ordered in 1935 - in time to be built by the first year of the Pacific war. Which means the option
for such a ship would need to be filled by a fictional design - possibly closer to the historical "ships that
never were" - which were much larger - and much better armed - and without a savings in steel or engines.

There was a school of thought (the aviators of course) who believed battleships were a mistake. Had they taken
charge there would be NO capital gunships at all. And it might have resulted in a more powerful fleet - more
carriers.
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RE: If the Japanese did not build the Super-Battleships...

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Symon

You seem to be a simple wargame weenie talking about simple wargame weenie things. The detail in this forum is beyond simple wargame weenie nonsense. Almost all of your statements are wrong. You obviously know nothing about real ship design or real armament dispositions

You are clearly a troll with nothing to add to the discussion. Your statements on ship design/performance parameters are laughable. My SNAME (Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers) number is 37613. What’s your’s?

[ed] If you want to play on these threads, then you need to learn. If you don't want to learn, then go play on the main board, or go somewhere else.

[8|]
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RE: If the Japanese did not build the Super-Battleships...

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: DeltaV112
ORIGINAL: Symon

You seem to be a simple wargame weenie talking about simple wargame weenie things. The detail in this forum is beyond simple wargame weenie nonsense. Almost all of your statements are wrong. You obviously know nothing about real ship design or real armament dispositions

You are clearly a troll with nothing to add to the discussion. Your statements on ship design/performance parameters are laughable. My SNAME (Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers) number is 37613. What’s your’s?

[ed] If you want to play on these threads, then you need to learn. If you don't want to learn, then go play on the main board, or go somewhere else.
Mind saying anything about why I'm wrong, instead of engaging in a transparent and meaningless personal attack? This sort of thing always reflects poorly on you. It is sort of funny though that you seem to hate "wargame weenies" so much.

EDIT: The 4x3 design would be very close to the Battleship H study for the Number 13 class. That was planned for 30kts with 12 16" guns. Developments in hull shaping would let you drop the engine size and increase armoring. There's also the A-140J3, which had more armor and displaces 58,000. So 48,000-50,000 is reasonable for 4x3, if you're willing to accept less than cutting-edge protection.

If you want to play around with ship design, download SpringSharp. You can find it....somewhere. I think PaxMondo posted a link to it about 2-3 years ago, if you want to search the forums instead of googling. You only need to know basic ship design principles in order to mess around with things on a "good enough" level that it could be applied to a WITP mod.

Just ignore Symon when he goes off like that. Sometimes he has some really good posts, like his previous one.... other times, well...
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RE: If the Japanese did not build the Super-Battleships...

Post by 1EyedJacks »

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Just fired a query off to Juan to see if his sources might have any info regarding real plans drawn up for a Japanese BB and BC in the mid-30s.


Didn't the Bismarck get laid down in the mid 30s? If Japan was getting sub info from Germany then you could lay the alternate history for Japan to pick up building plans for them... I think the speed of the Bismarck was high enough to keep up with your carriers. And the reduction in main gun size would make it easier to replenish those BBs when they need rice & bullets.

http://www.bismarck-class.dk/technicallayout/generaldetails.html
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RE: If the Japanese did not build the Super-Battleships...

Post by John 3rd »

I LIKE the idea of sticking to those 16" guns. Makes re-arming far more easy during the war.

Am open to ideas past that...

No BC designs for the time makes that an easier decision. Perhaps we just focus on several 'fast' 16" BBs for the 3rd Circle and see what gets thought up. The concept of 5x2--4x3--3x3 are all options for a main gun armament. Secondary and Tertiary guns are also open for consideration...
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RE: If the Japanese did not build the Super-Battleships...

Post by John 3rd »

The biggest factors in my thinking is NOT having to enlarge the slipways that Yamato and Musashi were built upon. By not doing that, one saves a YEAR of time and a BUNCH of $$$.

Tentative thoughts would have 3 new Battleships ordered in 3rd Circle along with a twin CV to Hiryu. The Gun Club gets new 'toys' while the slowly growing 'air' faction gets another flightdeck. The first two BBs would be complete by Dec 7th while the 3rd is finished sometime in mid-to-late 42. The CV would be ready in early-42.

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RE: If the Japanese did not build the Super-Battleships...

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: 1EyedJacks
ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Just fired a query off to Juan to see if his sources might have any info regarding real plans drawn up for a Japanese BB and BC in the mid-30s.


Didn't the Bismarck get laid down in the mid 30s? If Japan was getting sub info from Germany then you could lay the alternate history for Japan to pick up building plans for them... I think the speed of the Bismarck was high enough to keep up with your carriers. And the reduction in main gun size would make it easier to replenish those BBs when they need rice & bullets.

http://www.bismarck-class.dk/technicallayout/generaldetails.html

I like this idea.
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RE: If the Japanese did not build the Super-Battleships...

Post by ny59giants »

Tentative thoughts would have 3 new Battleships ordered in 3rd Circle along with a twin CV to Hiryu. The Gun Club gets new 'toys' while the slowly growing 'air' faction gets another flight deck. The first two BBs would be complete by Dec 7th while the 3rd is finished sometime in mid-to-late 42. The CV would be ready in early-42.

Following traditional Japanese planning, I would go with pairs. A set of 2 BBs and 2 CVs (Hiryu Class CV is OK). Any possibility of another modern dozen DDs to go with these new large warships?? [:)][:)] Another full CV TF (2 CVs, 2 BB/BC, 12 DDs) would be nice.
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RE: If the Japanese did not build the Super-Battleships...

Post by John 3rd »

Could make sense Michael. Have to think on it some...
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BB Design

Post by John 3rd »

OK. Did some research and went through a bunch of websites before settling on this for the Japanese BB (replacing the Yamato-Class):



Image

Armament:
4x3 16.1"
6x2 6"
4x2 5" AA

Going with the 'Few to Conquer Many Thinking" this BB would have two additional 16" Rifles over any current US BB, would be faster, and just as heavily armored. We could go with the HP number JWE threw out and place their speed at 28-30 Knots.

I am not sure about the armor. The studies I found on this BB did not include those numbers. Does anyone know or want to take a guess?
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RE: BB Design

Post by John 3rd »

Just after I Post this, Michael sends me some of Juan's Scenario work from right when AE was published. Will look through that for any hidden gems...
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BB Design

Post by John 3rd »

This is the BB Juan devised that is very similar. At 56,000T, this is going to be too big for the quest of NOT expanding the slipways. Figure that we're shooting for about 45,000T to still fit.

At any rate here is what he devised:


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RE: BB Design

Post by JuanG »

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

This is the BB Juan devised that is very similar. At 56,000T, this is going to be too big for the quest of NOT expanding the slipways. Figure that we're shooting for about 45,000T to still fit.

At any rate here is what he devised:


Image

Those are still available here, along with artwork (incase you want to use any of it); tm.asp?m=2179124

John, out of those I would look more at Sagami class (3x3x16.1in), that is a concept based on the design studies done about possible Kongo/Fuso replacements. They are around 42,000tons and 28 knots, more could probably be squeezed out by sacrificing something, and just being laid down a little later with newer, more compact powerplants (think they are '32/33 vintage in AltWNT).

Secondly, there is absolutely no way you are going to get a design with 12x16.1in and a speed of 30 knots with decent protection on anything less than 55-60,000 tons, which means you need those expansions. That means that design above is out if you don't want facility expansions.

Remember that speed is by far the most 'expensive' thing in terms of tonnage at these sizes, and even the difference between 28 and 30 knots can mean several thousand tons of additional weight. Bigger powerplants mean more internal volume, which also means more armour surface, etc. Something of an illustration is comparing Iowa to South Dakota, with the former gaining around 10,000 tons of size with the majority of the coming from direct or indirect impacts to acheive 5 knots of speed.

The only sensible choice given size constraints (around 45-50,000t) for a 'balanced' design at 30 knots is somewhere between 8 to 10 16.1in guns, with protection decreasing with increasing firepower. I tend to favour arrangements with 3 turrets as it cuts down on turret weight somewhat and also plays nice with a larger powerplant by reducing internal volume. An interesting option might be 2x4 with the aft deck used for floatplanes ala Tone, but presents its own engineering challenges due to the quad turrets.

Here's a nice graphic showing some of the proposed layouts during the Yamato design studies - obviously the ship would probably be smaller, but it shows the kind of layouts that were in the minds of the IJN at the time;
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/ ... 5hvc0i.png

Here's a list of the design studies with their general characteristics, from Anatomy of the Ship - Battleship Yamato;
http://imageshack.com/a/img540/4725/ZGTq3S.jpg

If you settle on some design criteria I can put together a few design calculations about what it would mean in terms of size, powerplant, cruising ranges, etc.

EDIT: Just saw the Satsuma (Owari class) on the other page, thats probably as good as its going to get to be fair. Gun layout is up for debate as Symon said, but the general characteristics are probably in the right ballpark. That one is using an interesting two forward, 1 center (either amidships or more likely forward but masked ala Nelson), no intermediate 6.1in battery (a good choice imho, but maybe not in line with IJN thinking), and a very heavy secondary DP AA suite based on an upgraded 12cm.
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RE: If the Japanese did not build the Super-Battleships...

Post by FatR »

Purely in terms of cost, Yamato stood at 281 mil. yen, with following battleships in the series projected at 214 mil yen each. A B-65 battlecruiser was estimated to cost 136 mil. yen (by calculations made in July of 1941). So looking at this in terms of cost, building 3 smaller superdreadnoughts, who would have been noticeably larger and more expensive than B-65s, in place of 2 Yamatos seems unlikely. Particularly as the impact of the initial investment necessary to build Yamatos lessens as the series continues.

There is also the problem of crew. While lack of trained aircrews (and airframes for that matter) to staff existing Japanese carriers to their capacity before Midway is well-known, Kaigun notes that Japanese also barely had enough trained ship crews for their existing fleet. Assuming new battleships would be a bit bigger than Nagatos they would probably require around 2000 crewmembers to Yamato's 2767.

Now I understand perfectly well that Yamato and Musashi are not exactly the most valuable surface assets in the game. 90% of naval battles are by night where they don't shine, and thanks to the overall system, every time they eat a torpedo they may be stuck in Home Islands shipyards for a year. But in terms of real life logic and knowledge available at the moment of their construction, they were the optimal choice. On every previous stage of the battleship race a substantial qualitative advance was a prize much sought after. It can be argued whether Yamato accomplished its design goal of imposing one-sided fights on post-treaty dreadnoughts it was designed to beat. But the overall goal was correct.

In fact, while modding the Japanese fleet is fun, the more I read about IJN, the more I think that the number of their actual screwups was quite few: the medium calibre gun situation, both having four bloody medium guns produced at the same time, and choosing 127/50 3 YT as their cannon of choice for the destroyer fleet; then not developing a heavy rail-dropped depth charge; and building Oyodo. Heavily investing in sub construction before the war and building cheap RO-subs was a bad error (no wonder that most players shut down sub construction!), but a large part of the blame should be placed on Germans and Italians and their vast overestimations of successes their submarine warfare achieved. Overall that's a pretty fine rate of correct to erroneous decisions, perhaps better than that of pre-war US Navy, certainly better than that of every other major navy. And perhaps this is the reason why most attempts at alternative history end up producing something worse than the actual Japanese OOB, when they do not postulate extra resources, as we generally do with the mods.
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