Rules misunderstanding or Supply Bug ?

[paulderynck]

It has been noted (and discussed to my extreme embarrassment) in the Development Forum. Thanks for your post. And once looked at and addressed, will very likely root out an arcane non-supply situation.

[AxelNL]

The supply line crosses 31,50, which is clearly in ZOC of the OOS Russian Mech. See picture.

[ACMW]

I guess this resolves the problem. Bit surprised there was no mention of rule 19.7 which allows GERMAN units to trace supply through Sweden in certain circumstances. Does Mannerheim count as German for these purposes? In which case a conquered Oslo would be a secondary supply source for Mannerheim and then the Baltic could be used back to Helsinki or indeed Tampere (via Turku) or, indeed, a German city.

Or am I confusing myself!!!

[paulderynck]

That is possibly a good catch here if the program considers Mannerheim OK for that rule because he is German controlled. Also unknown from the picture is whether there's a German unit in Norway (which is also required for supply to be traced through Sweden).

[brian brian]

I would have never remembered that rule, that's for sure.

Also, all it would take for a bug here would be a single tiny error in the map data about which hexside is a lake hexside and which isn't...

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: ACMW

I guess this resolves the problem. Bit surprised there was no mention of rule 19.7 which allows GERMAN units to trace supply through Sweden in certain circumstances. Does Mannerheim count as German for these purposes? In which case a conquered Oslo would be a secondary supply source for Mannerheim and then the Baltic could be used back to Helsinki or indeed Tampere (via Turku) or, indeed, a German city.

Or am I confusing myself!!!

You are not allowed to trace a railway supply route to another secondary supply source so Oslo is out. Tracing to a Norwegian port does not help either since then there is a extra hex for the German port anyway.

Shortly after my first post I did consider the possibility that railway supply was traced through Sweden and across the straits to Denmark and then a railway path all the way down to Germany but I delayed posting about it since I deemed that route so unlikely and then AxelNL settled the issue.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: ACMW

I guess this resolves the problem. Bit surprised there was no mention of rule 19.7 which allows GERMAN units to trace supply through Sweden in certain circumstances. Does Mannerheim count as German for these purposes? In which case a conquered Oslo would be a secondary supply source for Mannerheim and then the Baltic could be used back to Helsinki or indeed Tampere (via Turku) or, indeed, a German city.

Or am I confusing myself!!!

You are not allowed to trace a railway supply route to another secondary supply source so Oslo is out. Tracing to a Norwegian port does not help either since then there is a extra hex for the German port anyway.

Shortly after my first post I did consider the possibility that railway supply was traced through Sweden and across the straits to Denmark and then a railway path all the way down to Germany but I delayed posting about it since I deemed that route so unlikely and then AxelNL settled the issue.

If I am understanding correctly question and answer, you are wrong.

You can not trace supply to a Secondary (as a final destination) but you can trace though it, which is what I think ACMW says.

From 2.4.2 RAW:

A secondary supply source of the tracing unit must be able to trace a supply path either to a primary supply source or via another secondary supply source. That other secondary source must also be able to trace a supply path either to a primary source or via another secondary source, and so on. There can be any number of secondary supply sources in this chain but it must end up at a primary supply source of the unit tracing the path.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: ACMW

I guess this resolves the problem. Bit surprised there was no mention of rule 19.7 which allows GERMAN units to trace supply through Sweden in certain circumstances. Does Mannerheim count as German for these purposes? In which case a conquered Oslo would be a secondary supply source for Mannerheim and then the Baltic could be used back to Helsinki or indeed Tampere (via Turku) or, indeed, a German city.

Or am I confusing myself!!!

You are not allowed to trace a railway supply route to another secondary supply source so Oslo is out. Tracing to a Norwegian port does not help either since then there is a extra hex for the German port anyway.

Shortly after my first post I did consider the possibility that railway supply was traced through Sweden and across the straits to Denmark and then a railway path all the way down to Germany but I delayed posting about it since I deemed that route so unlikely and then AxelNL settled the issue.

If I am understanding correctly question and answer, you are wrong.

You can not trace supply to a Secondary (as a final destination) but you can trace though it, which is what I think ACMW says.

From 2.4.2 RAW:

A secondary supply source of the tracing unit must be able to trace a supply path either to a primary supply source or via another secondary supply source. That other secondary source must also be able to trace a supply path either to a primary source or via another secondary source, and so on. There can be any number of secondary supply sources in this chain but it must end up at a primary supply source of the unit tracing the path.

That you can trace from a secondary supply source to another secondary supply source has nothing to do with my statement. I just claim that it is more than 4 hexes from Mannerheim to Oslo so then Mannerheim can not use Oslo as a secondary supply source. Only way that Mannerheim is in supply is by tracing directly to a primary supply source since that is the only time that he can use a railway supply path. (edit: Since there is no secondary supply source within 4 hexes or two hexes in storm)


RAC: 2.4.2 Tracing supply
....
Supply paths
You trace a supply path from a unit to a primary supply source. If you are tracing a path from a secondary
supply source to a primary supply source, it is a railway supply path. If you are tracing any other supply path, it is a
basic supply path.

A supply path, basic or railway, can be up to 4 hexes. Each desert, or desert mountain, hex your supply path
enters counts as 1 extra hex. This maximum distance will vary in some weather (see 8.2.2). In those cases, you
determine the length allowed for each path by the weather in the hex occupied by the unit or secondary source from
which you are tracing.


Railway supply paths
A hex a railway supply path enters, by moving along a railway or road, does not count against the 4 hex limit.
A hex it enters across a straits hexside also does not count against the limit, so long as the hexes on either side of the
straits are railway hexes. The 4 non-rail hexes can occur anywhere along the path. Although you will mostly use
them to trace supply from an HQ to the railhead, they can be handy for re-routing around an enemy unit that’s
blocking a vital rail link.

[Joseignacio]

Sorry, Supply is one of the things I find extraordinarily tricky in the game, so I may perfectly well be wrong, but...

I just claim that it is more than 4 hexes from Mannerheim to Oslo so then Mannerheim can not use Oslo as a secondary supply source.

As I see, if Oslo was conquered and connected by rail or road to a hex two hexes (in this case) from Mannerheim, he could perfectly reach the rail and then to Oslo, secondary, then (if no enemy interdiction) Turku or Germany as Primary.

At least, that's how I played and seen it play for years.

[Orm]

1) Oslo is a secondary supply source.
2) If you are tracing a path from a secondary supply source to a primary supply source, it is a railway supply path.
3) If you are tracing any other supply path, it is a basic supply path.
4) Since tracing from Mannerheim to Oslo is tracing from a secondary supply source to a secondary supply source it can't be a railway supply path and must be a basic supply path.
5) A basic supply path can be up to 4 hexes modified by terrain and weather.

[Joseignacio]

Then how you move more than 4 hexes away from Warsaw into Russia?

Warsaw is a secondary supply source, and HQ is a secondary supply source, so you cannot be more that 4 hexes away (into USSR) depending on climate.

Are you saying that?

I think the railroad hexes don't count towards the 4 hexes limit. The port, however, does.

A secondary supply source of the tracing unit must be able to trace a supply path either to a primary supply source or via another secondary supply source.

Mind the text doesn't refer to basic supply path but only supply path between secondary sources.

[Orm]

Warsaw is a secondary supply source, and HQ is a secondary supply source, so you cannot be more that 4 hexes away (into USSR) depending on climate. Are you saying that?

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying if you traced to Warsaw, but why you should trace to Warsaw instead of primary supply source like Berlin, Konigsberg or even Hamburg eludes me.

[Orm]

Mind the text doesn't refer to basic supply path but only supply path between secondary sources.

That is because the rules already has defined the supply path between two secondary supply sources as a basic supply path.

[Joseignacio]

Ok, not being my strong point teh supply, wont insist. However, I'll ask somebody else, just to make me 100% sure and will be back. [:)][;)]

[AlbertN]

5) A basic supply path can be up to 4 hexes modified by terrain and weather.

That - out of railroad.
A basic supply path can be infinite amount of hexes technically - as long as they got via railroad I believe (or road).
Exactly as it can go through an infinite amount of sea zones.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Cohen

5) A basic supply path can be up to 4 hexes modified by terrain and weather.

That - out of railroad.
A basic supply path can be infinite amount of hexes technically - as long as they got via railroad I believe (or road).
Exactly as it can go through an infinite amount of sea zones.

You describe a railway supply bath and not a basic supply path. A basic supply path has no "free" railway hexes. It has four hexes in total that is modified by weather and terrain.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

2.4.2 Tracing supply
To be in supply, a unit must be able to trace a supply path back to a primary supply source.

(1) A primary supply source for a unit is:
• any friendly city in the unit’s unconquered home country; or
• for a Commonwealth unit, any friendly city in another unconquered Commonwealth home country; or
• any friendly city in an unconquered home country of a major power the unit co-operates with (see 18.1 Who can co-operate).

MiF option 6: An HQ is a primary supply source for the rest of the turn if you expend a face-up supply unit it is stacked with (see 22.4.10 Supply units (MiF option 6)).

A city controlled by the communist Chinese is not friendly to the nationalist Chinese (and vice versa), even though both are (nominally) on the same side.

If the unit can’t trace a supply path directly to a primary supply source, it can trace it via one or more secondary supply sources instead.

(2) A secondary supply source for a unit is:
• an HQ the unit co-operates with (see 18.1 Who can co-operate); or
• the capital city of a minor country controlled by the unit’s major power; or
• the capital city of a major power, or a minor country, conquered by the unit’s major power, or by a major power the unit co-operates with.

A secondary supply source of the tracing unit must be able to trace a supply path either to a primary supply source or via another secondary supply source. That other secondary source must also be able to trace a supply path either to a primary source or via another secondary source, and so on. There can be any number of secondary supply sources in this chain but it must end up at a primary supply source of the unit tracing the path.

Example: Poland’s controlling major power is the Commonwealth. Warsaw is a secondary supply source for Commonwealth units, in
addition to being a primary source for Polish units.

A city can only be a supply source for a unit if it has not been controlled by the other side at any time in the turn.

A supply source can supply any number of units.

(1 and 2) Defines the diference in a primary and basic supply path. Please note a HQ unit can be a primary source of supply if conditions are met.

Supply paths
You trace a supply path from a unit to a primary supply source.

(3) If you are tracing a path from a secondary supply source to a primary supply source, it is a railway supply path.

(4) If you are tracing any other supply path, it is a basic supply path.

A supply path, basic or railway, can be up to 4 hexes. Each Asian or Pacific (AfA/AiF/AsA Option 1: or African, American or Scandinavian) map hex you trace into counts as 2 hexes. Each off-map hex counts as 4 hexes, so you can only trace a basic supply path into an adjacent hex during clear weather. Each desert, or desert mountain, hex your supply path enters counts as 1 extra hex (i.e. counts as 2 on the European maps, 3 on the Asian and Pacific maps and 5 in off-map hexes).

This maximum distance will vary in some weather (see 8.2 Weather effects ~ 8.2.2 Supply). In those cases, you determine the length allowed for each path by the weather in the hex occupied by the unit or secondary source you are tracing from.

Railway supply paths
(5) A hex a railway supply path enters, by moving along a railway or road, does not count against the 4 hex limit. A hex it enters across a straits hexside also does not count against the limit, so long as the hexes on either side of the straits are railway hexes.

The 4 non-rail hexes can occur anywhere along the path. Although you will mostly use them to trace supply from an HQ to the railhead, they can be handy for re-routing around an enemy unit that’s blocking a vital rail link.

(3 and 4) Defines the differences between a railway (primary supply path) and a basic supply path.


(5) Note that a hex in a railway supply path along a railway or road does not count against the 4 hex limit.

Overseas supply paths
Any part of a basic or railway supply path can be traced overseas. You may only trace supply overseas once for each unit attempting to trace supply, regardless of how many secondary supply sources are used between the tracing unit and the primary supply source.

(6) The sea portion of a supply path does not count against the maximum number of hexes permitted in the path. The port hex you trace the overseas supply path into does count against your 4 hex limit. However, it always counts as only 1 hex, regardless of what map it is on or what terrain it contains.

To trace a basic supply path overseas, the unit must be in a coastal hex or trace the path via a port. To trace a railway path overseas, the secondary source must be in a coastal hex or trace the path via a port.

SiF option 11: (limited overseas supply) You can only trace a supply path overseas if each sea area you trace it through contains a friendly convoy, TRS or AMPH.

From the coastal hex or port, you trace the supply path via any number of consecutive sea areas to a friendly controlled port which is a supply source itself or from which you can continue the supply path overland to a supply source.

You cannot trace a supply path into a sea area that contains:
• an enemy CV, SCS or aircraft unit with an air-to-sea factor;
• unless it also contains a surface naval unit, or aircraft unit with an air-to-sea factor, (SiF option 11: convoy, TRS, or AMPH only) controlled by any major power or minor country at war with that enemy unit.

You can’t trace a supply path between sea areas if one of your SCS couldn’t move between them (see 11.4.4 Naval movement restrictions). For example, Axis units can’t trace supply between the Western Mediterranean and Cape St. Vincent until Gibraltar is Axis controlled.

Example: In the picture above, Rundstedt traces his railway supply path to Alexandretta (only counting as 3 hexes against the limit because the rest are along a railway). From there, he traces overseas through the Eastern Mediterranean and Italian Coast sea areas to Ancona (counting as the 4th hex) and then any distance along railways to any friendly German or Italian city.

If any of these sea areas contained an Allied CV, SCS, or aircraft with an air-to-sea factor, you could only trace this supply path through that sea area if it also contained an Axis surface naval unit or aircraft with an air-to-sea factor.

You cannot trace an overseas supply path either out of, or into, an icedin port (see 8.2.10 Iced-in ports) if the weather in that hex is snow or blizzard.

(6) Notes that a overseas supply path counts as 1 hex against the 4 hex limit.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

As I see, if Oslo was conquered and connected by rail or road to a hex two hexes (in this case) from Mannerheim, he could perfectly reach the rail and then to Oslo, secondary, then (if no enemy interdiction) Turku or Germany as Primary.

At least, that's how I played and seen it play for years.

Chalk up another tick mark in the "playing it wrong for years" column. [:)]

Secondary supply sources can be chained (as long as they all cooperate with the unit tracing supply) but the path traced from one to the next must be a basic path not a RR path. A RR path can only be used between the last secondary source (if any) and a primary source (regardless of how many secondary sources are involved).

[Joseignacio]

True.

Although in most of the game didn't have any consequence, cause if you can trace to Warsaw by rail, you can also forget Warsaw and just trace to Germany, like you just said.

But in Finland, for example, i guess we may have counted wrong because it's not the same to trace to Helsinki and trace again to Germany than to trace to Germany directly, maybe some time we lacked the extra hex for the port and we didn't count it because it was on the "Helsinki-Königsberg" leg, no in the "Hq - Helsinki" leg. But it seems there are no legs, so if you are 2 hexes away from Helsinki in rain and you trace from GE you are OOS. :O

And there may be worse cases.

As for secondary to secondary, I remembered that rule for HQs, in fact there is an example with two GE HQs in the desert in the RaW, but in that case there was no RR affecting so it could have been clearer...

[Centuur]

We are making things too difficult here. Here is the rule on supply through Sweden:

Sweden
German units can move, and trace supply, into and through Sweden if
Sweden is neutral and if there is at least 1 other German unit in each
of Finland and Norway.

If these conditions are met Mannerheim can trace a railway supply path through neutral Sweden and an Axis controlled Denmark to Berlin. He doesn't need to go through Norway at all. Such a railway supply path will be from a secondary supply source (Mannerheim) to a primary supply source (Berlin)...

However: there is no German unit in Norway. Furthermore, Mannerheim isn't a German unit... He's German controlled...

So it still is a bug...