Once Upon a Time (somewhere) in the West

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Seminole
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RE: Turns 51-52: 17 June – 30 June 1944

Post by Seminole »

In Normandy, I manage to break out, the three armoured divisions of XIII British Corps clear the north bank of the Orne and almost reach Vire. In the north British and American armour reach the outskirts of Cherbourg only to find the port is strongly defended.


Be interesting to see how the attention of 6 TFs contributes to cracking that nut. I try not to read too far into the tea leaves of the battle reports detail section, but I get the impression those big naval guns contribute heavily to disruption.
"War is never a technical problem only, and if in pursuing technical solutions you neglect the psychological and the political, then the best technical solutions will be worthless." - Hermann Balck
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loki100
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RE: Turns 51-52: 17 June – 30 June 1944

Post by loki100 »


ORIGINAL: jwolf

From my amateur's point of view it looks like the main effect of the Dutch landings was to ease pressure at Normandy and allow something of a breakout there. Well done.

aye, that was my emergency option, I wasn't sure about risking it but the Luftwaffe is clearly running out of steam in this game, with escorts vs interceptors I am trading losses at 1-1, so I guess I've culled all the at-start experienced pilots. With that I could risk splitting the airforce into two so as to dominate over two landing zones.

In terms of disrupting the AI it worked better than I expected, I suspect the AI left itself no reserve and logically decided to protect the direct route to the Reich ... but now I need to make sure I liberate my mother-in-laws house, I'm sure she doesn't appreciate being on the front line [;)]
ORIGINAL: Seminole
In Normandy, I manage to break out, the three armoured divisions of XIII British Corps clear the north bank of the Orne and almost reach Vire. In the north British and American armour reach the outskirts of Cherbourg only to find the port is strongly defended.


Be interesting to see how the attention of 6 TFs contributes to cracking that nut. I try not to read too far into the tea leaves of the battle reports detail section, but I get the impression those big naval guns contribute heavily to disruption.

Looking at the detail, its a combination. About 50% of the elements were already disrupted due to air attacks, so that will be 4-5 weeks of constant interdiction and also being the direct target of 200 typhoons in turn. A lot more were disrupted by artillery, from WiTE I really like the effect of massed artillery on cohesion and the British/US stuff seems to be better gun for gun than the Soviets.

So by the time the fighting started, their command and control was wrecked, hence the catastrophic collapse in CV. That has been happening in battle after battle.

Def shows the medium term impact of sustained interdiction and supply line attacks

oh and thanks for the tip about the deployment of the TFs, in effect that is a lot more disruption inflicted for free on the defenders
jwolf
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RE: Turns 51-52: 17 June – 30 June 1944

Post by jwolf »

ORIGINAL: loki100
...the British/US [artillery] seems to be better gun for gun than the Soviets.

Is this true? I'm asking in ignorance without any axe to grind on any side. My impression was that the Western Allies relied on air power whereas the Soviets relied on massed arty. Of course they all used everything they had, but that is the stereotype picture I have in mind.
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RE: Turns 51-52: 17 June – 30 June 1944

Post by Flaviusx »

ORIGINAL: jwolf

ORIGINAL: loki100
...the British/US [artillery] seems to be better gun for gun than the Soviets.

Is this true? I'm asking in ignorance without any axe to grind on any side. My impression was that the Western Allies relied on air power whereas the Soviets relied on massed arty. Of course they all used everything they had, but that is the stereotype picture I have in mind.

Allied artillery on a per gun basis was better. More coordinated, better communications, more responsive, superior artillery technique.

What the Soviets had was mass, but quantity has a quality of its own. The Soviet artillery technique was brutally effective but required a good deal of preplanning and positioning to pull off. Soviet deception techniques were arguably better, and they had to be, given their build up times.
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loki100
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RE: Turns 51-52: 17 June – 30 June 1944

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: jwolf

ORIGINAL: loki100
...the British/US [artillery] seems to be better gun for gun than the Soviets.

Is this true? I'm asking in ignorance without any axe to grind on any side. My impression was that the Western Allies relied on air power whereas the Soviets relied on massed arty. Of course they all used everything they had, but that is the stereotype picture I have in mind.

As Flaviusx says, there were advantages to both doctrinal approaches. The Soviets never managed the forward observer concept so all artillery was by line of sight (the usual role for the 76mm divisional guns) or by the map. The best Soviet commanders came up with sophisticated and effective blocks of plans and could shift between them fairly promptly, the worst fired by the map at a given point and hoped.

Equally the Soviets made a lot of use of WW1 guns, all those howitzers in your pools at the start. Like a lot of WW1 vintage artillery the actual HE was weak, so the shells were deadly as shrapnel but less so as explosives.

But the allies couldn't generate anything like the sort of mid/late war barrages the Soviets could manage for a set piece attack. Nor could they emulate how effective the Soviets were at tucking a lot of equipment into a very small space but still retain fire discipline (Tolbukhin's offensive on the lower Dniester in late 1944 is a classic eg).

In game, my instinct is the allied artillery has more experience than the Soviets, so that will count and the SU allocation is more reliable.
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Turns 53-54: 1 July – 13 July 1944

Post by loki100 »

Turns 53-54: 1 July – 13 July 1944

T53 started with much the same pattern of AI moves and deployment as T52. It is heavily dug in around my landings in the Netherlands and still contesting Normandy. My air response is much the same, 9 Air does interdiction strikes in the Netherlands, 2 Tactical Air in Normandy. Most of 8 Air and Bomber Command are also on various forms of interdiction behind the immediate front line. Bomber Command carries on with night raids at Magdeburg. 15 Air is still bombing Ploesti into the ground and goes for the PzIV factories at Steyr [1]

This time my air losses are a fair bit higher, both destroyed and damaged.

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As in the last turns, my strategic raids led to heavier losses among the German interceptors than among my own escorts. Equally there is intense air action over the Netherlands but I have the skies over Normandy to myself.

Steyr is reduced to rubble and Magdeburg takes more damage.

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In the Netherlands, I land my last HQ formations and a single tank division (till I get a port I don't want to create heavy supply demands). Reinforce my units facing Dordrecht and send a single Infantry Division over to liberate Walcheren.

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Normandy sees a massive breakout, again seemingly powerful defensive stacks just fall apart in combat.

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The three armoured divisions of British XII Corps create a narrow corridor towards Mortain all but cutting off the German units still on the peninsular.

Finally, nothing happens in Italy. I've slowly followed a limited German withdrawal but no attacks since the Rome battles in late winter.

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Here, I think is a rare instance of the AI making a mistake. It clearly has far too many units screening my front, not enough to launch an offensive but far too many just to defend. It may be that my relentless rail bombing has reduced its capacity to move but I think those units would be more use in France?

Turn 54, and the VP situation is still negative, reflecting ground losses and much less attention being paid to the strategic air war.

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In Normandy, I create one corps with the bulk of the Allied heavy artillery (and lots of engineers in the assigned rifle divisions). I'll use this to take out the coastal ports, not least I really need Cherbourg.

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But the big news on T54 is that the Germans are on the run from Normandy. A sensible choice given the ease of my victories and that they were threatened with a massive encirclement.

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In response, I rest most of 2 Tactical Air, try to set up some interdiction efforts around some escape routes and allow 8 Air to return to strategic bombing in the Ruhr. 15 Air has run out of targets in Romania so shifts to S Germany.

Losses are down reflecting the lower intensity of air operations. I lose 387 (1118 damaged) and shoot down 255 (241 damaged). Again contesting the strategic air raids costs the Luftwaffe a lot of planes.

In France, 2 British Army takes control of the bulk of the armoured divisions and, supported by Paratroop drops, crosses the Seine and liberates Paris. 1 US Army is protecting the rear areas and will send some formations to besiege the Atlantic ports.

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Looking at the strategic resources, German oil stores are starting to dip

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They have lost about 1,000 AFV (net) in the last 4 weeks

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In Italy, I'm afraid that Anna decided she was bored waiting for the Allies to do something, so undertook her own offensive with disastrous results

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[1] – having done so much damage to the Pzr divisions, I'd like to stop them rebuilding if I can
jwolf
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RE: Turns 53-54: 1 July – 13 July 1944

Post by jwolf »

Amazing breakout in France. The Germans just fell apart. Did they overreact to the Dutch landing?

As for Anna, the soldiers don't seem to concerned about her for some reason...
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RE: Turns 53-54: 1 July – 13 July 1944

Post by ParaB »

Very interesting turn of events.

decourcy2
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RE: Turns 53-54: 1 July – 13 July 1944

Post by decourcy2 »

Thanks for posting all of this.
The thing i am most impressed about is the AI is doing a credible job on defense, obviously the AI cannot play the Allies but as Germans, not bad.
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RE: Turns 53-54: 1 July – 13 July 1944

Post by Seminole »

The thing i am most impressed about is the AI is doing a credible job on defense, obviously the AI cannot play the Allies but as Germans, not bad.

The AI isn't hampered by the same logistical considerations as a human opponent when building a line. It is allowed to essentially 'teleport' units around (ignoring ground interdiction effects) to try and finish each turn with a more solid defensive line.
"War is never a technical problem only, and if in pursuing technical solutions you neglect the psychological and the political, then the best technical solutions will be worthless." - Hermann Balck
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RE: Turns 53-54: 1 July – 13 July 1944

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: jwolf

As for Anna, the soldiers don't seem to concerned about her for some reason...

ah but the very next scene in the film leads to this:

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ORIGINAL: jwolf

Amazing breakout in France. The Germans just fell apart. Did they overreact to the Dutch landing?

ORIGINAL: ParaB

Very interesting turn of events.

ORIGINAL: decourcy2

Thanks for posting all of this.
The thing i am most impressed about is the AI is doing a credible job on defense, obviously the AI cannot play the Allies but as Germans, not bad.

I think it has too much in Italy, that must be harming its chances in France, but overall its very neat at getting out of pockets. I catch a few slower units but most have escaped. The other thing it does very well is to leave strong defences in each port, that means I can't really sort out my supplies and in turn will give it a decent chance to recover and rebuild a line in Belgium.
ORIGINAL: Seminole
The thing i am most impressed about is the AI is doing a credible job on defense, obviously the AI cannot play the Allies but as Germans, not bad.

The AI isn't hampered by the same logistical considerations as a human opponent when building a line. It is allowed to essentially 'teleport' units around (ignoring ground interdiction effects) to try and finish each turn with a more solid defensive line.

Overall I don't mind the AI getting a help here and there to compensate. Another thing I've noticed with the WiTW AI is it keeps its OOB sensible, rather than the chaos of elite Pzr units in Hungarian corps that you find in WiTE.

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Turns 55-56: 15 July – 28 July 1944

Post by loki100 »

Turns 55-56: 15 July – 28 July 1944

With the massive German retreat I shift the pattern of my air attacks. Still a lot of interdiction over the Netherlands and I start directly bombing the units defending Cherbourg and Le Havre. Take some of the B-17s of 8 Air and return them to bombing the Ruhr, with fighter cover now from the bases on the Dutch coast this is becoming a death trap for the Luftwaffe. 15 Air carries on bombing Southern Germany.

I also shift mission design for the strategic bombers to include multiple hexes with the number of missions set for each hex where I want to see activity. This clearly improves the commitment of planes but also runs the risk of heavier losses (have started doing the same in my PBEM).

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Actual air losses remain light, though I have lots of damaged planes (and this is meaning lower morale in many units).

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The RAF night raid on the Ruhr seems to confirm that this new bombing pattern can be effective and 8 Air shows a similar improvement in the damage inflicted

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In both it helps that the Luftwaffe is effectively powerless to protect the cities.

Air recon seems to indicate the Germans are digging in around Brussels. So I decide to gamble and push at least to the Belgian border with the armour while other units move down to the Loire and into Brittany. The image below is actually from the end of T56 as I was able to carry on moving with no contact for both turns. Supply is holding up ok, but I need to capture ports before I can engage in any more combat.

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Cherbourg proves to be tough. The first attack (T55) I knew was going to fail but want to burn off the ammunition and supplies of the defenders.

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Next time I am also going to move the TF units to help out, no longer worried about losses with them as the only remaining planned invasions are in Southern France.

For the air war in T56 I kept to a similar pattern of attacks.

Bomber Command again delivered pretty impressive results and 8 Air damaged key factories around Cologne

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By the end of T56, my rail net has reached Paris and I have the start of a sequence of depots. However, from the beachheads I am landing about 20% of the supply I need, so there is a need for rigorous priorities to be imposed.

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VP remains negative, mainly due to the relatively heavy losses I am sustaining and a lack of attention to the V-weapon sites.

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And, for a change, here's a picture of some Lancaster bombers:

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Seminole
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RE: Turns 55-56: 15 July – 28 July 1944

Post by Seminole »

Next time I am also going to move the TF units to help out, no longer worried about losses with them as the only remaining planned invasions are in Southern France.

I don't think you'll have to worry about them suffering much (if any) in the way of losses by providing supporting fire. Just don't leave them next to enemy ports at the end of the turn.
Overall I don't mind the AI getting a help here and there to compensate.


I understand handicapping, but obviating the knock on effects of ground interdiction robs a particular flavor from the game. I think people also build false impressions about the efficacy of certain practices because of how they affect the AI vs. real opponents.
Don't get me wrong, I love the game has AI. AI is already ready to send back another turn and wants to play any scenario to the end. [8D]
"War is never a technical problem only, and if in pursuing technical solutions you neglect the psychological and the political, then the best technical solutions will be worthless." - Hermann Balck
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RE: Turns 55-56: 15 July – 28 July 1944

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: Seminole
Next time I am also going to move the TF units to help out, no longer worried about losses with them as the only remaining planned invasions are in Southern France.

I don't think you'll have to worry about them suffering much (if any) in the way of losses by providing supporting fire. Just don't leave them next to enemy ports at the end of the turn.
Overall I don't mind the AI getting a help here and there to compensate.


I understand handicapping, but obviating the knock on effects of ground interdiction robs a particular flavor from the game. I think people also build false impressions about the efficacy of certain practices because of how they affect the AI vs. real opponents.
Don't get me wrong, I love the game has AI. AI is already ready to send back another turn and wants to play any scenario to the end. [8D]

re TFs its clear they are a much more potent part of the Allies weaponry than appears at first sight, certainly more than just the means to deliver your invasions etc

aye, see what you mean, its one thing for the AI to do some things more efficiently than a player would but its a bit frustrating when rules are effectively suspended, especially as I'd set up a couple of interdiction zones precisely to limit wider movement. Still it seems as if I trapped a few regiments/divisions in addition to the various port garrisons
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Turns 57-58: 29 July – 11 August 1944

Post by loki100 »

Turns 57-58: 29 July – 11 August 1944

For T57 not that much happened. I decided to let my assault troops at Cherbourg rest a turn while carrying on massive interdiction and unit attacks. In the Netherlands, elements of 8 and 9 Air carry on interdiction and supply suppression of the German units blocking me in. On the Franco-Belgian border, more allied units arrive as I push forward the supply lines and start to deploy some short range fighters and fighter-bombers to bases around Lille.

The main issue was a truly disastrous raid by Bomber Command on the Ruhr. I've been playing around with settings and decided to risk a relatively low altitude night raid. Well it did a lot of damage both to the Ruhr and my air units.

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The effect of that was having to rest almost the entire BC for T58, not so much for outright losses as all that damage in turn lowered the morale of many squadrons.

The other raid of any note was 15 Air on Ingolstadt. Since I have a lack of targets for 15 Air now I decided to blow up the Me-262 factories. Not at all sure if this really matters, but it was very satisfying.

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Overall VP remains negative, especially as I have been neglecting the V-weapon campaign.

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So for T58 I decide to correct for this. The main mission of 8 Air is to hit the V-weapon test bases on the Baltic.

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In the Med, Tactical Air and the Naval assets start to build up for the planned landings.

Overall the air war worked out better with a return to more conventional tactics. I lost 269 (962 damaged) and shot down 215.

Cherbourg fell relatively easily in the end. All those heavy guns, 4 task forces and a lot of air attacks pretty much meant the defenders were keen to surrender after a brief show of resistance. Next stop for the VII Corps road show is Le Havre, which is already a lot weaker (I guess lack of supply and some limited bombing)

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You can see the impact of all those big naval guns:

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End of turn, I'm rather stuck where I am at the moment till I can clear out more of those fortified ports. Its not just the supply problem but also that each is tieing down at least a division and I don't have that many spare formations.

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In the east, the Red Army approaches Warsaw

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jwolf
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RE: Turns 57-58: 29 July – 11 August 1944

Post by jwolf »

Looks like the capture of Cherbourg really improved your rear situation, and each new port cleaned out will help similarly.

Does the Eastern Front simply follow historical progress?
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loki100
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RE: Turns 57-58: 29 July – 11 August 1944

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Looks like the capture of Cherbourg really improved your rear situation, and each new port cleaned out will help similarly.

Does the Eastern Front simply follow historical progress?

yes, it'll take time for the port to work but at least VII corps can move onto Le Havre and that Canadian division split down at Le Havre can move to cover the next port and so on. I'm not going to worry about the ports in Western France (though that may depend on how many reinforcements I gain).

I *think*, against the AI, the East Front is historical, certainly the game ends with the Soviet capture of Berlin unless I manage to reach it first in early May 1945
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Seminole
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RE: Turns 57-58: 29 July – 11 August 1944

Post by Seminole »

ORIGINAL: loki100

Turns 57-58: 29 July – 11 August 1944

You can see the impact of all those big naval guns:

Image

Preach it, brother, preach it!
"War is never a technical problem only, and if in pursuing technical solutions you neglect the psychological and the political, then the best technical solutions will be worthless." - Hermann Balck
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loki100
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RE: Turns 57-58: 29 July – 11 August 1944

Post by loki100 »

aye, I think the issue is to conceptually realise what those TFs really represent. At first its easy to focus on them as specialist transport units, but in truth they are a huge force multiplier, especially once you have done most of your effective landings. Moving those 4 TFs along the Channel coast is a bit like parking a death star over each axis strongpoint [:)]

Just have to hope the German AI has never seen star wars ....
jwolf
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RE: Turns 57-58: 29 July – 11 August 1944

Post by jwolf »

ORIGINAL: loki100

Just have to hope the German AI has never seen star wars ....

Heh. [:)] Would a V2 take them out?
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