War in the Pacific Chess, Anyone?

[GaryChildress]

I'm sure this idea will float like an anvil but I've been considering a new idea for a mod with Germans, Italians and Japanese on one side versus US, UK and France on the other. The map would be a real world map (I was originally considering doing a completely fictional map) only with completely fictional colonies for the Germans and Italians in the Pacific; Italian Sumatra and German Malaysia. The Japanese entry point would be Formosa, Hawaii for the US, Australia for the British and Noumea, New Hebrides and Fiji for the French. The entire middle area would be largely undefended. Maybe call the mod "War in the Pacific Chess" or "Red vs Blue". No back story, no rationalization behind it, just an all out free for all in the Pacific between the major powers. Lots of toys, lots of possibilities. Good clean fun. The map and all the weapons, planes and ships would be RL, national borders and everything else, complete fabrication. Below would be the map area.

Ideas? Thoughts? Death Threats? [:D]

[Dili]

Might be fun, but a more "realistic" one is if Britain is neutralised in 1940, Hitler don't want to attack Soviet Union yet and Germans and Italians send an expeditionay force to Pacific.

[GaryChildress]

Prior to this I was considering having Britain neutralized in 1940 and Parliament moves to Canada along with a major part of the British Fleet. Maybe even negating World War I and leaving some German colonies in the pacific. That might be a possibility but every time I get into any kind of "what if" story I get blasted for it so I figured why even try. [:D]

[GaryChildress]

Here is another alternative to my diabolical plan above: WW1 turns out differently. Germany keeps its colonies in the Pacific. War breaks out in Europe in 1939, England is overrun and Parliament goes into exile in Canada. Germany decides not to invade Russia and Japan, although still Germany's ally, decides not to invade China. The US gets into the war on the side of Britain and France. No Pearl Harbor, everyone is just an eager beaver to go to war and slice out a colonial empire for themselves.

[spence]

Just seems like another flight of fantasy where the guys who did some cool stuff win in the end. I'd recommend putting little crosses or swastikas on regular knights or pawns, or calling them Messerschmidts and Panzeer IIIg's or whatever and playing on an 8 square by 8 square board. Just what is the purpose of putting this abortion in the Pacific...why not have everybody fight over Antarctica or Saudi Arabia. Make some islands off NYC.

It should be noted that Germany and Japan were losers in real life. BTW, which side would you put Italy on?

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: spence

Just seems like another flight of fantasy where the guys who did some cool stuff win in the end. I'd recommend putting little crosses or swastikas on regular knights or pawns, or calling them Messerschmidts and Panzeer IIIg's or whatever and playing on an 8 square by 8 square board. Just what is the purpose of putting this abortion in the Pacific...why not have everybody fight over Antarctica or Saudi Arabia. Make some islands off NYC.

It should be noted that Germany and Japan were losers in real life. BTW, which side would you put Italy on?

Islands off NYC? Sounds like a great idea! Why didn't I think of that? Mind if I borrow your idea for my mod? [:D]

[spence]

Perhaps the 4 German saboteurs who landed on Long Island captured it in 1942...and then with the Martians in New Jersey they envelop the city while the Italians pour in reinforcements to create a permanent lodgement. But wait, have you decided which side the Italians are on yet?

[GaryChildress]

Sure. The Italians are on the side of the Martians.

[Dili]

If Italy didn't changed sides in late of 43, a mini submarine atack by X Flotilla was to be made against New York , Italian submarine Da Vinci was being prepared to the operation, but went on a mission while the mini sub was being fixed and was sunk. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_su ... o_da_Vinci

[Alikchi2]

I like this idea very much!

[DOCUP]

I like it Gary. I really like the Germany keeps its colonies thought. Its your mod do it your way,don't let those negative nellys bother you.

[MadmanRick]

Gary, in my opinion what makes WitP-AE such a great game is the ability for one to modify the game to reflect your desires/interests. I fully support you in this endeavor, despite the fact that you have admitted that it will be very unhistorical. In regards to the nay-sayers I say, "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead." At the end of the day, it's your mod, have it your way.

Rick

P.S. If you are in need of any air artwork, I am available to assist.

[Leandros]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Prior to this I was considering having Britain neutralized in 1940 and Parliament moves to Canada along with a major part of the British Fleet. Maybe even negating World War I and leaving some German colonies in the pacific. That might be a possibility but every time I get into any kind of "what if" story I get blasted for it so I figured why even try. [:D]

Tell me about it! I wrote a book on Operation Sea Lion - the planned German invasion of England in September 1940 where I indicated it could have succeeded.
I was immediately branded a Nazi....[&:]..

Probably some of the reason why no realistic game has been made of it......[:-]

Fred

[wdolson]

There was an extensive discussion about the invasion of England in 1940 here a couple of months back. Nobody got labeled with any particular political belief, but I think a pretty strong case was made that Germany's odds of success were pretty slim at best.

Bill

[Leandros]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

There was an extensive discussion about the invasion of England in 1940 here a couple of months back. Nobody got labeled with any particular political belief,
but I think a pretty strong case was made that Germany's odds of success were pretty slim at best.

Bill

He-he - why am I not surprised....[;)]

Some years back I was involved in the Sealion discussions on the Armchair General website. It went over several years with approx. 15.000 postings. It was later
given the acrynom: TTTSNBN - The Thread That Shall Not Be Named. In the typical Sealion discussion it is almost impossible to have the participants
keep things in context and very few have a good knowledge of the German preparations - as well as the British weaknesses at the time.

Because of this I decided to write a book on it. The ACG discussions did a lot to help me find, and research, many of the finer points. As I have experienced
it most people discussing Sealion have a quite strong pre-occupation - or agenda. My agenda was, if it could be called that, to find out if the Germans really
were as amateurish in this respect (Operation Sea Lion) as they are usually portrayed. I found they weren't.

On the subject of the book project I'm working on now - "Saving MacArthur" I see much the same. My main parameter to justify a look into this is that most US
planners and military analysts before the war had drawn the correct conclusions: A grand campaign such as the Japanese started in December 1941 would inevitably
lead to a serious over-stretching of their resources. Therefore they were vulnerable.

A simple example: The Japanese thrust beyond Davao/Mindanao in December '41 was stopped at Digos/Malalag by the already existing US/Filipino resources on
Mindanao. The Japanese didn't have the resources to renew the Mindanao (and Visayas) offensive untill after the fall of Bataan. If Menado had been reinforced and the
invasion repulsed, with Japanese losses, they could not have continued to Kendari and Ambon as they did, as much of their forces, naval, army and air, were
planned to be used for these sequential operations. Some of the forces in Davao/Digos, too. Which is why they had to postpone that operation.

Admittedly, "Saving MacArthur" depends on the important pre-requisite that President Roosevelt would have to strike down on the defeatist attitude of his
military leaders, mainly the navy. The other important pre-requisite would be to use the US resources in the Far East for American purposes, that of
relieving the Philippines, and not squander them on a British-led ABDA. There were provisions for this in the ABDA agreements.

I'm afraid a discussion on the subject, as outlined by me here, would lead to much the same as the Sealion discussions I have seen. Actually, I have already
experienced it. Which is why I instead choose to use my time on a book project where I can put things in proper context. And not be called ugly words.....[;)]

To see what resources were right around the corner of the Philippines when the war started I recommend reading Glenn Williford's: Racing the Sunrise. Sure, it
takes a little imagination to see how this could have been used if it had been pushed forward rather than held back. The Germany-first policy was also not
a hinder for this, and more, this was taken care of by Roosevelt on the Arcadia Conference in January.


Fred

[wdolson]

I won't say ad hominens don't happen here, but I think it is less common than many sites. Most of the people here can debate while staying polite about it.

Bill

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Leandros

ORIGINAL: wdolson

There was an extensive discussion about the invasion of England in 1940 here a couple of months back. Nobody got labeled with any particular political belief,
but I think a pretty strong case was made that Germany's odds of success were pretty slim at best.

Bill

He-he - why am I not surprised....[;)]

Some years back I was involved in the Sealion discussions on the Armchair General website. It went over several years with approx. 15.000 postings. It was later
given the acrynom: TTTSNBN - The Thread That Shall Not Be Named. In the typical Sealion discussion it is almost impossible to have the participants
keep things in context and very few have a good knowledge of the German preparations - as well as the British weaknesses at the time.

Because of this I decided to write a book on it. The ACG discussions did a lot to help me find, and research, many of the finer points. As I have experienced
it most people discussing Sealion have a quite strong pre-occupation - or agenda. My agenda was, if it could be called that, to find out if the Germans really
were as amateurish in this respect (Operation Sea Lion) as they are usually portrayed. I found they weren't.

On the subject of the book project I'm working on now - "Saving MacArthur" I see much the same. My main parameter to justify a look into this is that most US
planners and military analysts before the war had drawn the correct conclusions: A grand campaign such as the Japanese started in December 1941 would inevitably
lead to a serious over-stretching of their resources. Therefore they were vulnerable.

A simple example: The Japanese thrust beyond Davao/Mindanao in December '41 was stopped at Digos/Malalag by the already existing US/Filipino resources on
Mindanao. They didn't have the resources to renew the Mindanao (and Visayas) offensive untill after the fall of Bataan. If Menado had been reinforced and the
invasion repulsed, with Japanese losses, they could not have continued to Kendari and Ambon as they did as much of their forces, naval, army and air, were
planned to be used for these sequential operations. Some of the forces in Davao/Digos, too. Which is why they had to postpone that operation.

Admittedly, "Saving MacArthur" depends on the important pre-requisite that President Roosevelt would have to strike down on the defeatist attitude of his
military leaders, mainly the navy. The other important pre-requisite would be to use the US resources in the Far East for American purposes, that of
relieving the Philippines, and not squander them on a British-led ABDA. There were provisions for this in the ABDA agreements.

I'm afraid a discussion on the subject, as outlined by me here, would lead to much the same as the Sealion discussions I have seen. Actually, I have already
experienced it. Which is why I instead choose to use my time on a book project where I can put things in proper context. And not be called ugly words.....[;)]

To see what resources were right around the corner of the Philippines when the war started I recommend reading Glenn Williford's: Racing the Sunrise. Sure, it
takes a little imagination to see how this could have been used if it had been pushed forward rather than held back. The Germany-first policy was also not
a hinder for this, and more, this was taken care of by Roosevelt on the Arcadia Conference in January.


Fred

warspite1

I am clearly coming at this question from the opposite side to you, but as you have gone to the trouble of doing a lot of research I would be very interested in hearing why you think Sealion was remotely possible.

Here is the thread which, with a couple of exceptions where people try and make arguments with a childish put down [8|], was very well argued I thought. I would be very interested to hear your views Leandros.

tm.asp?m=3773378

[Leandros]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I won't say ad hominens don't happen here, but I think it is less common than many sites. Most of the people here can debate while staying polite about it.

Bill

So far that is my impression, too....[:)]

Fred

[Leandros]

warspite1

I am clearly coming at this question from the opposite side to you, but as you have gone to the trouble of doing a lot of research I would be very interested in hearing why you think Sealion was remotely possible.

Here is the thread which, with a couple of exceptions where people try and make arguments with a childish put down [8|], was very well argued I thought. I would be very interested to hear your views Leandros.

Hi, Warspite - like I wrote I have used a lot of time discussing the subject. Not to be patronizing but after a quick look into the link you provided I see that
this discussion, too, slides along the well-throdden path - lots of general opinions taken out of context with little basis in actual facts and figures. I am not
particularly keen to get into another discussion, I have too much to say about it and too little time. Which is why I wrote a book. If you want all of it in one
package I can send you my book, it can be bought on eBay, it's more than 300 pages. I still cannot post links here (new rookie) but you can find info on it if you
google: River Wide, Ocean Deep - A New Perspective on Operation Sea Lion. I think you will find comments on it there, too (Strategypage).

On that web-page is also some preliminary info on one of my next book projects - which is why I am here: "Saving MacArthur". That I would like to discuss!
The subject should be more befitting this forum, too. Don't you think?

Fred

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Leandros

warspite1

I am clearly coming at this question from the opposite side to you, but as you have gone to the trouble of doing a lot of research I would be very interested in hearing why you think Sealion was remotely possible.

Here is the thread which, with a couple of exceptions where people try and make arguments with a childish put down [8|], was very well argued I thought. I would be very interested to hear your views Leandros.

Hi, Warspite - like I wrote I have used a lot of time discussing the subject. Not to be patronizing but after a quick look into the link you provided I see that
this discussion, too, slides along the well-throdden path - lots of general opinions taken out of context with little basis in actual facts and figures. I am not
particularly keen to get into another discussion, I have too much to say about it and too little time. Which is why I wrote a book. If you want all of it in one
package I can send you my book, it can be bought on eBay, it's more than 300 pages. I still cannot post links here (new rookie) but you can find info on it if you
google: River Wide, Ocean Deep - A New Perspective on Operation Sea Lion. I think you will find comments on it there, too (Strategypage).

On that web-page is also some preliminary info on one of my next book projects - which is why I am here: "Saving MacArthur". That I would like to discuss!
The subject should be more befitting this forum, too. Don't you think?

Fred

warspite1

No problem. I don't think you are being patronising. You have your opinion and you clearly feel sufficiently strongly such that you wrote a book about it - no mean feat [&o].

I will try the google search and see what comes up. I am particularly interested in reading the facts and figures you are talking about. Equally I hope you won't think I am being patronising when I say it should be an interesting read! [:)]

As to what befits this forum, no I disagree, there is a wealth of knowledge in this forum - few people I find are interested in, for example the Pacific, to the exclusion of everything else. For that reason I think this is a good place for such an OT discussion.