Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

Moderator: MOD_WarintheWest

JocMeister
Posts: 8258
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:03 am
Location: Sweden

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



Sometimes people forget that they are actually playing somebody else, and not an AI. It's easy to get complacent and not treat the German army with some level of respect.

There is no doubt that you will still take Sicily, but he is trying to set a tone for the game. Make you think twice about launching an operation. He will not go quietly.

Yeah, not getting complacent though. On the contrary I´m terrified what he is up too! [X(] I´ve learned a long time that when I don´t understand what my opponent is doing I´ll usually end up in trouble.

So, anyone have any ideas what he is doing?
Image
Smirfy
Posts: 1057
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:24 pm

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by Smirfy »


I'm no expert but was wondering how viable staying on the front foot like Meklore is at keeping Italy in the war. Im sure their airforce is pretty useful everyturn it stays in combat for the good players.
User avatar
loki100
Posts: 11708
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Utlima Thule

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



Sometimes people forget that they are actually playing somebody else, and not an AI. It's easy to get complacent and not treat the German army with some level of respect.

There is no doubt that you will still take Sicily, but he is trying to set a tone for the game. Make you think twice about launching an operation. He will not go quietly.

Yeah, not getting complacent though. On the contrary I´m terrified what he is up too! [X(] I´ve learned a long time that when I don´t understand what my opponent is doing I´ll usually end up in trouble.

So, anyone have any ideas what he is doing?

I think he's playing games with you ... a bit of uncertainty adds to the real game options as opposed to the peltonic approach. If you strip out too much from Sicily for the next wave of invasions you are vulnerable to the forces already there, even if, in turn, you may have a more powerful secondary offensive waiting to go?
JocMeister
Posts: 8258
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:03 am
Location: Sweden

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: Smirfy


I'm no expert but was wondering how viable staying on the front foot like Meklore is at keeping Italy in the war. Im sure their airforce is pretty useful everyturn it stays in combat for the good players.

I´m uncertain of this. My initial reaction to his vicious defense was that its a mistake. After all, why fight the allies where they are strongest? But now I´m starting to wonder...how long can he pin me on Sicily....with my forces divided on Sicily and Sardinia I might not be strong enough to take both...

The LW and RA is taking a pounding though...
ORIGINAL: loki100
I think he's playing games with you ... a bit of uncertainty adds to the real game options as opposed to the peltonic approach. If you strip out too much from Sicily for the next wave of invasions you are vulnerable to the forces already there, even if, in turn, you may have a more powerful secondary offensive waiting to go?

Yeah, he might indeed just be be playing with me. But then again would that be worth losing troops and a big chunk of the LW over? Probably not. So I bet he is trying to do something. Perhaps even throw me back into the sea which would be disastrous if he succeeded...

No other big invasions planned right now except a small one. All troops are currently being used on Sicily or Sardinia. I have a small invasion planned on the heel but its only 4 IDs and I might have to abort that and reinforce Sicily...

Also transferred about half the 2nd RAF to Africa last turn...just in case.
Image
carlkay58
Posts: 8778
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:30 pm

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by carlkay58 »

Right now he has the ability to know where four of your six naval amphibs are. The other two will take six to eight turns before ready to launch the next invasion. Thus he can tie you up for the next four or five turns before pulling out his German units safely. Fighting for Sardinia and Sicily will slow down your time table in the MTO. The Allies have a pretty tight timetable to really get very far in the Med in 43 and after that they have to concentrate on the ETO in order to have a chance. Add in the casualties you are taking in the fighting and it is a win - win strategy for the Axis. Or at least it appears to be a possibly good strategy. We will have to wait and see how it plays out.

As to the air losses - they are heavy but the Axis aircraft production is quite high. The bottleneck is trained pilots. Pelton pulls all of the LW back out of range of the Allied air power after his LW is demolished in the Med and lets the pilots train up. With the effect that the winter weather has in both the MTO and ETO air wars this has worked out okay for him.
User avatar
Seminole
Posts: 2243
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:56 am

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by Seminole »

Another 570 LW planes are torched on the ground making it almost 1000 planes lost during the turn. This most be impossible for him to sustain?

Nice job crunching up planes on the ground.
I prefer not to look at the gross figures as much as the airframes themselves. The 109 losses, the Ju-88 and He-111 losses are what I'm keying on. You could also be downing lots of Italian planes, which are a write off for the German player anyway. If he isn't losing Italians in droves he's not using them.
They (Italians) do have some decent fighters and even some Ju-87s, but the most important thing with the game rules right now is their transport squadrons.

A few observations on your deployments. I'm kind of surprised the guy with the WitPAE background has such little regard for his naval assets. [;)]

Image

Image

You want to be 6-8 weeks ahead in your planning, at least, as the WA. Each turn you're not prepping a TF for their next invasion is in my opinion a turn lost. The Russians are coming!
When TF are performing the port repair function you can actually have them inside the port with a combat unit (I prefer break down units) and they'll get prep at the same time as long as you've set a new target. Even if you change targets later at least built some prep.
You can hop to a new port next turn, repair it, and ensure you leave a regiment behind in there too (if you don't want to transport the unit from last turn to the new port on ships or over land).

Given his disposition on Sicily, and your commitment to Sardinia, I would use two TF to clean up Sicily (repair ports for 1 turn then close supply across the Straits). Use naval patrol (B-25s and B-24s with whatever patrol you can get in theater ASAP) to isolate Catania and Trapani/Palermo until they are overrun.

In Sardinia, push north on your left flank, use your TF to blast through that rough terrain and exploit with the tanks. You want him to think he can hold Catania because that will stretch his line. By the time you take and repair Oristano he should be at the breaking point on Sardinia and running to escape isolation on Sicily. Inf regiments will hold that rough from any Italian onslaught.

The 3 TFs not ending the turn in Sicily/Sardinia can be prepping for your next invasion spot. They can still sally forth each turn from African ports and help provide fire support to any attacks along the coast. Just keep an eye on your SMP. They will end the turn with 30 but not be able to move any farther. This bit me once...
"War is never a technical problem only, and if in pursuing technical solutions you neglect the psychological and the political, then the best technical solutions will be worthless." - Hermann Balck
User avatar
Lowpe
Posts: 24582
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:25 pm

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by Lowpe »

This game is very exciting and much different from your first one Joc.

I like it that the Axis is fighting forward, and I await to see what other surprises they have in store for you if any. Plus what new tactics you will be developing.

JocMeister
Posts: 8258
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:03 am
Location: Sweden

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Right now he has the ability to know where four of your six naval amphibs are. The other two will take six to eight turns before ready to launch the next invasion. Thus he can tie you up for the next four or five turns before pulling out his German units safely. Fighting for Sardinia and Sicily will slow down your time table in the MTO. The Allies have a pretty tight timetable to really get very far in the Med in 43 and after that they have to concentrate on the ETO in order to have a chance. Add in the casualties you are taking in the fighting and it is a win - win strategy for the Axis. Or at least it appears to be a possibly good strategy. We will have to wait and see how it plays out.

As to the air losses - they are heavy but the Axis aircraft production is quite high. The bottleneck is trained pilots. Pelton pulls all of the LW back out of range of the Allied air power after his LW is demolished in the Med and lets the pilots train up. With the effect that the winter weather has in both the MTO and ETO air wars this has worked out okay for him.

Yeah, right now meklore seems to be well in control. Did some good progress on Sicily this turn though. We will see if I can hold it.

I know Axis fighter production is very high but Q-ball indicates bombers might be an issue. Not sure how many Germany produces each turn? I´ll look into it tomorrow. [:)]
Image
JocMeister
Posts: 8258
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:03 am
Location: Sweden

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: Seminole

Thanks for the advice! [&o]

Bottleneck for me right now isn´t the Amphibs but troops. Everything not prepping (2 IDs) are already on Sicily or Sardinia fighting. And I can´t pull troops out to prep right now with the current situation. And with the supply situation being quite critical on Sardinia I figured I might as well leave the extra amphib there. Might pull some extra supply?

On Sicily the port at Gela is already repaired. Don´t dare move the Amphib at Noto and lose the temp port there just yet. Unless the Amphib would insta repair the level 3 port at Syracuse? I tried using an Amphib to close the straights before but it cost me a lot of ships...both ports are 100% damaged anyway so I´m not sure it would do any good?





Image
JocMeister
Posts: 8258
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:03 am
Location: Sweden

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by JocMeister »

______________________________________________________________________________

[font="Verdana"]Turn 5.[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Heavy losses in the air. Quick update as I´m off to bed.

------------------------
Northern Europe
------------------------

Bomber Command gets absolutely pummeled over the Ruhr this turn. Almost 300 planes lost. 8th go after the U-boats with good results and moderate own losses.

------------------------
The Med
------------------------

On Sardinia the supply situation makes me unable to do anything. Don´t dare deplete what little ammo I have in attacks until things stabilize. Have trouble getting good interdiction up.

On Sicily Meklore does 3 attacks which luckily all fail. We clean up the two cut off RGTs using the Moroccan ID while the 7th Army with the help of some Canadians and paradrops cut Sicily in half. Question is if I´ll be able to keep it like that.

Meklore could possible use the Panzer Corps (HG, 2 PzG + a Pz) he has on Sicily to counter attack but then he would risk getting cut of by the 8th army moving north. Might be time for him to pull out soon.




Image
Attachments
Sicily3.jpg
Sicily3.jpg (465.43 KiB) Viewed 405 times
Image
User avatar
Seminole
Posts: 2243
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:56 am

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by Seminole »

Bottleneck for me right now isn´t the Amphibs but troops. Everything not prepping (2 IDs) are already on Sicily or Sardinia fighting. And I can´t pull troops out to prep right now with the current situation.

Stormtroopers aren't a bottleneck when you have six Deathstars.
Your defensive line is overkill in Sicily so you could easily break down a division to gain some prep for your TFs.
And with the supply situation being quite critical on Sardinia I figured I might as well leave the extra amphib there. Might pull some extra supply?

You're getting a small amount of naval interdiction, but no extra supply from that extra TF.
Be more useful to gain him 20 prep for your next surprise.
Go for overkill on your own naval patrol to maintain beachhead supplies. I think it is important to escort these missions and try to run air superiority from the beachhead airstrips with spitfire squadrons. Their small size lets you roll them in as your air support finally arrives (getting air support to new bases is the biggest problem I have in this game regarding the interface settings and logistics AI).
On Sicily the port at Gela is already repaired. Don´t dare move the Amphib at Noto and lose the temp port there just yet.

I'm not seeing the port icons for your temp ports, but isn't the amphib actually providing supply to a port/depot at Pachino? I think that depot is a waste of time because it isn't on the rail network. Set it to 0 and let it get drained. Gela and Syracusa will be enough when fixed. He can't pour in more to threaten you lest he lose it all when you go for the jugular.
Unless the Amphib would insta repair the level 3 port at Syracusa?

No, you're correct on that, my bad. I'm thinking if the port on the left flank the Americans can get next. It is small.
I tried using an Amphib to close the straights before but it cost me a lot of ships...both ports are 100% damaged anyway so I´m not sure it would do any good?

Don't out the TF in the ferry hex. I posted a map somewhere showing how to choke each side by being a

Also, I don't trust recon. He could have some construction SUs and repair several percent the following turn.
"War is never a technical problem only, and if in pursuing technical solutions you neglect the psychological and the political, then the best technical solutions will be worthless." - Hermann Balck
JocMeister
Posts: 8258
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:03 am
Location: Sweden

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: Seminole
Stormtroopers aren't a bottleneck when you have six Deathstars.
Your defensive line is overkill in Sicily so you could easily break down a division to gain some prep for your TFs.

Lets agree to disagree about that for now shall we! [:)] I´m currently facing a reinforced Pz Corps on Sicily. If I´m to make any gains here I need the troops a couple of turns more IMO.
ORIGINAL: Seminole
You're getting a small amount of naval interdiction, but no extra supply from that extra TF.
Be more useful to gain him 20 prep for your next surprise.
Go for overkill on your own naval patrol to maintain beachhead supplies. I think it is important to escort these missions and try to run air superiority from the beachhead airstrips with spitfire squadrons. Their small size lets you roll them in as your air support finally arrives (getting air support to new bases is the biggest problem I have in this game regarding the interface settings and logistics AI).

Again, I don´t have any spare troops to prep for anything. [:)] I have transferred a couple of Spits and Hurris to the beaches but I can´t supply the air strip. Going to try a little harder here next turn.
ORIGINAL: Seminole
I'm not seeing the port icons for your temp ports, but isn't the amphib actually providing supply to a port/depot at Pachino? I think that depot is a waste of time because it isn't on the rail network. Set it to 0 and let it get drained. Gela and Syracusa will be enough when fixed. He can't pour in more to threaten you lest he lose it all when you go for the jugular.

Yes, you are correct. Its a Pachino. But if I move that one out I´m left with only 1 level 1 port and 1 level 2 for the entire Sicily. At least until Syracuse can repair (86 DAM).

ORIGINAL: Seminole
Don't out the TF in the ferry hex. I posted a map somewhere showing how to choke each side by being a

Also, I don't trust recon. He could have some construction SUs and repair several percent the following turn.

I´ll try to find the map. Thanks for the advice! [:)]
Image
JocMeister
Posts: 8258
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:03 am
Location: Sweden

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by JocMeister »

______________________________________________________________________________

[font="Verdana"]Turn 6.[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

------------------------
Northern Europe
------------------------


Not very good results with the bombings this turn. Both the 8th and BC is pretty beat up from the previous turn and many squadrons have to rest and recover. So with reduced strength comes reduced damage.

The 9th is blasting away the Luftwaffe over the Ruhr again though. After resting for a week and then having a 3 squadron added we create some serious carnage. 141 LW fighters shot down for only 54 own losses. [:)]

------------------------
The Med
------------------------

Again Meklore manages to isolate my ports on Sardinia. He attacked every unit holding the line but all attacks were repulsed. I devote even more planes to try and open the sea lanes but I have many bombers recovering. This time around I managed to get solid 7s and the odd 8 up. I can only hope it will be enough.

On Sicily Meklores Panzer Corps attack the British 8th Army. 2 Panzer and 2 Grenadier divisions try multiple times but luckily we manage to hold. The last remaining 3rd of the 25th PzG temporarily isolates parts of my northern thrust. We quickly turn the table on that and what is left of the 25th PzG is now hopelessly cut of.

Meanwhile US armor manages to push far to the west. Probably too far...

The 8th route one of the PzG holding the line at Catania.

Image
Attachments
Sicily4.jpg
Sicily4.jpg (601.52 KiB) Viewed 405 times
Image
User avatar
Seminole
Posts: 2243
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:56 am

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by Seminole »

But if I move that one out I´m left with only 1 level 1 port and 1 level 2 for the entire Sicily.


How much are your boys actually eating of what comes ashore?
Have you been watching your depots to see what comes through them?
Sciacca is a level 1 that you could have had repaired at the end of this turn. Trapani is also a level 1. With Gela and a damaged Siracusa I would think your supplies would be in fine shape.
Lets agree to disagree about that for now shall we!

No problem.
I´m currently facing a reinforced Pz Corps on Sicily. If I´m to make any gains here I need the troops a couple of turns more IMO.

I'd encourage him to keep that whole Pz Corps in the noose...
The ability of your Inf Rgt to defend against his panzers in rough terrain is very good.
I think Pelton flees Sicily because he knows how fast he could mess up Sicily from the other side.

Meklore's doing his best John B. Hood, but he's not saving Atlanta...
"War is never a technical problem only, and if in pursuing technical solutions you neglect the psychological and the political, then the best technical solutions will be worthless." - Hermann Balck
JocMeister
Posts: 8258
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:03 am
Location: Sweden

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: Seminole
But if I move that one out I´m left with only 1 level 1 port and 1 level 2 for the entire Sicily.


How much are your boys actually eating of what comes ashore?
Have you been watching your depots to see what comes through them?
Sciacca is a level 1 that you could have had repaired at the end of this turn. Trapani is also a level 1. With Gela and a damaged Siracusa I would think your supplies would be in fine shape.
Lets agree to disagree about that for now shall we!

No problem.
I´m currently facing a reinforced Pz Corps on Sicily. If I´m to make any gains here I need the troops a couple of turns more IMO.

I'd encourage him to keep that whole Pz Corps in the noose...
The ability of your Inf Rgt to defend against his panzers in rough terrain is very good.
I think Pelton flees Sicily because he knows how fast he could mess up Sicily from the other side.

Meklore's doing his best John B. Hood, but he's not saving Atlanta...

Oddly enough most freight is coming to Pachino and that is feeding the 8th Army. Another reason not to move that one out just yet... Syracuse went to 66 DAM this turn despite priority repairs. As soon as its repaired I´ll move the Amphibs out.

Should add here also that I have a lone Amphib sitting in Africa without any troops...perhaps I should move that one up and use it to threaten Messina...



Image
User avatar
LiquidSky
Posts: 2811
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:28 am

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by LiquidSky »

Make sure you have room for the construction unit in Syracuse for the priority repair
“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great
JocMeister
Posts: 8258
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:03 am
Location: Sweden

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by JocMeister »

______________________________________________________________________________

[font="Verdana"]Turn 7.[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Nasty surprise from Meklore...

------------------------
Northern Europe
------------------------

Poor weather but we continue to fly. Using N.O.S.B formula we are now getting +13 VPs per turn from bombing. Unfortunately that gain is eaten up by combat losses.

------------------------
The Med
------------------------

Meklore sorties the LW hitting my AF on Sicily. Luckily I´ve held the bombers back. Sadly it seems my fighters decided it was better just staying on the runway instead of actually trying to shoot down any planes. A couple of 100 LW bombers torched 500+ Allied fighters sitting on the runway. I though they were supposed to intercept incoming raids automatically? I´ve done the same thing on Axis airfields numerous times but always extremely heavy strikes with hundreds of escorts.

Only positive things is that most of the losses are P38s, P40s and Spits which I can spare. At least for now.

We finally clear the western side of Sicily. Soon time to start pulling troops here.

Image
Attachments
Sicily5.jpg
Sicily5.jpg (493.29 KiB) Viewed 405 times
Image
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by Peltonx »

wow that's way to many FZ's for nothing.
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
User avatar
loki100
Posts: 11708
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Utlima Thule

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

_
Meklore sorties the LW hitting my AF on Sicily. Luckily I´ve held the bombers back. Sadly it seems my fighters decided it was better just staying on the runway instead of actually trying to shoot down any planes. A couple of 100 LW bombers torched 500+ Allied fighters sitting on the runway. I though they were supposed to intercept incoming raids automatically? I´ve done the same thing on Axis airfields numerous times but always extremely heavy strikes with hundreds of escorts.


as the allies you are usually attacking airfields that already have decent supply etc. Think if you bring fighters over to a new island and set of bases its best not to give them any mission till supply has caught up, or even set up an AS to cover your bases with fighters in a secure spot (here Malta would probably do the job nicely)
JocMeister
Posts: 8258
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:03 am
Location: Sweden

RE: Shearing the Sheep! - JocMeister(WA) vs. Meklore61(Ax)

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: Pelton
wow that's way to many FZ's for nothing.

Why are FZ a bad idea? Because they take up manpower?
ORIGINAL: loki100
as the allies you are usually attacking airfields that already have decent supply etc. Think if you bring fighters over to a new island and set of bases its best not to give them any mission till supply has caught up, or even set up an AS to cover your bases with fighters in a secure spot (here Malta would probably do the job nicely)

Ah, of course. I didn´t realize I transferred them the turn before. I´ll have to do as you suggest next time. Thanks. [:)]

IMO a pretty clumsy mechanic that the air bases remain empty of supply if there are no planes. If supply is to bed had I think the airbases should draw some at least. Or give them a small amount when planes are stationed there so they can fly CAP at least.

Would also solve a lot of problems with the flawed naval interdiction system.
Image
Post Reply

Return to “After Action Reports”