1. Two pairs of new BBs. One set already in operation starting Dec 7th and the second set coming roughly a year later.
2. One pair of new BBs and then a pair of Command Cruisers (4x3 8" or 3x2 14") nearing completion.
3. The BBs and then a pair of CVs nearly completed and operational.
OPTION 3 would also necessitate and further spreading of Japanese pilots pulling down XP levels at war's start or REALLY low XP for the starting Daitai on the CVs.
Thoughts?
Is there a 4th Option?
What was the original premise for the current makeup of the Japanese fleet in this mod? I mean if, in this altered history, you have justified more carriers to the Japanese fleet then perhaps you need to continue down that direction for the first set of ships. If the altered history of BTS drives more towards more/better BBs then you probably need to continue down that direction for at least the first set of ships.
The second set of ships could be selected based on a change in direction by Japan. As an example - say the first set were BBs cuz they were the king of the line and every expert from every navy would bet their souls that a navy was only as good as it's battle line. And the second pair might-could be a CV and Heavy Cruiser after Japanese high command sees the new possibilities of a fleet based on carriers during their 'war games'...
Good Question and thoughts 1Eyed. I'll pull up the Scenario Description and add it in a minute.
DOCUP is spot-on. I LOVE these threads where there is serious substantive work going on in the discussion. Juan and John are the BEST! Big B has done excellent work as well (I'm probably missing a couple of others) but these two have been so much help to me and my design crew I cannot overstate my respect.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
This is the RA description but it works since the Treaty Mod additions are done in the 20s. Combine those and RA and you get a 20 year-long ALTNAV history:
The Reluctant Admiral is a Japanese 'what if' scenario based upon a greater contribution by Adm. Yamamoto Isoroku to the development of the Kaigun in 1936-1941. The premise of the Mod is that Yamamoto exerted a much greater influence first on the Japan Naval Aircraft Industry, then as Deputy Navy Minister, and finally as Navy Minister itself. Yamamoto chooses, at great risk to his life, to forego command of the Combined Fleet and dedicate himself to preparing Japan for a war he didn't want. He adds two new slipways for Fleet construction to facilitate a different, final pre-war expansion of the Kaigun. New and expanded Naval Yards, Heavy Industry, and Armaments are added at tremendous cost for the Japanese economy as the Admiral attempts to prepare Japan for a possibly long war. In so choosing to do this Yamamoto then changes the 4th Circle Building Plan replacing the 3rd and 4th Yamato-Class Battleships with improved Shokaku-Class CVs and a pair of Kawachi-Class fast Battlecruisers, two Tone-Class CAs, an accelerated Light Cruiser deployment, and additional destroyers. Quick, reasonably cheap carrier conversions are moved forward seeing all of the pre-war CVs/CVLs deploy by December 7th or at slightly earlier dates in 1942. Though only a few of these new ships are ready on December 7th, these additions shall make the Kaigun a force to be reckoned with well into 1944.
The Japan Naval Air Arm is changed so that everything is staked to the Zero Airframe with a specialization of the Zero into a Land-Based Interceptor as well as CV-Based Fighters. Research and production expansion is achieved by streamlining the air industry (cutting several models) while bringing forward second generation aircraft: Judy, Jill, etc… By great effort the IJNAF deploys nearly all new aircraft on December 7th.
On the ground Yamamoto reorganizes the SNLF units into a Brigade-Sized offensive force and—knowing it will be a war of attrition—converts many Naval Guard into enhanced units with Coastal Defense artillery (using guns taken from refitted warships) for a stronger defensive unit. Additional small units are added to the IJN’s Troops and support units better reflecting Yamamoto's foresight into base building, defense, and expansion needs. While all these units are small and not in great number they promise to help the Japanese war effort.
The foresight of the Admiral pays off during late-1942 and 1943 as new ships, aircraft, and ground units enter into the Japanese Order-of-Battle, however, the cost is steep. Though expanded and using modern aircraft many Japanese Naval Air units start with their experience lowered to reflect the dilution of the experienced pilots into new units that start in Japan or arrive during 1942-1943.
Supply and fuel reserves start at a much reduced state. The Japanese MUST take the DEI as fast as possible!
Once war begins RA postulates Yamamoto’s influence upon the wartime Kaigun. Several more Shokaku CVs are ordered as well as another pair of CAs, and the conversion of several CLs into CVLs. First class destroyers are accelerated and emphasis is shifted to the AA Akizuki-Class at the expense of the more balanced Yugumo’s. Manpower is at a premium within the Fleet so Submarines, Escorts, and ASW forces all see a major retooling reflecting the Japanese quality over quantity belief. Yamamoto chooses the immediately useful projects, large APs converting to CVEs, better 2nd-class destroyers, fast transports and coastal defense fleet.
It should be noted that not all the changes are for the Japanese. RA 6.4+ brings major additions and more choice for the Allied Player. The Allies see continued major changes in their starting locations, new air units, the addition of Training Squadrons on mainland USA to allow for an American pilot training program, enhanced aircraft production numbers, additional Allied FP groups, several ground units, a French Squadron at Noumea, the use of CLV Charlotte (a Flightdeck Cruiser), a CLAA conversion for the Omaha-CL, an additional pair of CVLs, and optional conversion of the Kittyhawk Class AKV, Tangier Class AV, and Cimarron Class AOs into CVEs. The added warships reflect a ‘stopgap’ counter to the increased Japanese strength found at war’s start.
How well can YOU do to use these new tools OR how well can you stop the Japanese Navy in its tracks as the Allies?
In addition to its own special modifications, The Reluctant Admiral 6.0+ has been made fully compatible with DaBabes and thus has more ship classes than stock, and many more of the smaller vessels comprising these classes for both sides: yard oilers, coastal minesweepers, auxiliary subchasers, patrol boats, minefield tenders, and many others designed to give a more robust and realistic feel to the development, population, capabilities, and logistical support of bases and rear and operational areas. The Reluctant Admiral 6.0 also incorporates several database modifications that are designed to give a more robust and realistic feel to several combat modes. Database elements have been modified to provide more realistic results for AAA (flak) combat, ASW combat, and certain minor, but nevertheless fun, aspects of naval combat, like land bombardment and coastal defense fire and new modifications to ATA combat. The modifications include lining-up and unifying data elements within certain fields, so that things interface more smoothly, as well as substantial changes to the data elements themselves.
Garrison requirements have been raised in China as well as India to, hopefully, better reflect the political environment of the regions.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
I sorta like 1EyedJacks idea. Two BBs and then a CV and CA. Why? Dunno really, just a feeling and an opinion.
Umm, It’s very hard to opine on a subject that you, John’, have given so much thought to. Opinions come from the perspective of the holder, and if that isn’t quite your perspective, then those opinions should be taken with a great deal of booze. Maybe some of us can help inform the details, but I really like that you have defined the premise, and have done so with such specificity and attention to historical detail.
It is an intellectual feast working with you on this; and the inputs from people like JuanG, 1EJ, 49Gs, FatR, Skyros, and others, are very thought provoking and there’s some great stuff out there. But never forget that you are the Deity. All we can do is help you achieve your goals and perhaps have enough left over for a nice evening of sushi, noh, and geisha, at the Heavenly Gate in Kyoto.
Speaking for people I have no right to do so for: Thank you for your confidence and your kind attention to our opinions. Ciao. JWE
Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.
Thanks John. I know it is my decision at the end of this but I too love these sorts of discussions and all the great thoughts that come from it. We have a mutual admiration society with everyone listed above.
OK. I think the BBs have to be built due to the Gun Lobby. When they are completed Yamamoto has taken control as Navy Minister. He still has to juggle the Gun Club with the Air-Minded Faction so how about a compromise similar to what you mentioned? Japan builds two BBs, Yamamoto moves into the Ministry and he gets a CV and a B-65 or a 3rd BB put in. One for each faction. What do you think?
The CV could be a 'quickie' like Hiryu or another Shokaku. Thoughts with that?
Not wedded to this--just 'tossing' it out.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
I'm going to go so far outside of left field, I've left the stadium for this next idea. [:D] Was there 'ever' any thoughts to have a 'super-CA' with 10" guns?? In may not even go into this mod, but since we are discussing 'what ifs' I thought I throw it out there.
As I understand it B-64 is the designation for the series of designs that became the Amagi class BC, both the 12in and 14in 'Super Cruiser' designs shared the B-65 designation.
One option for building after the first pair of BB's could be a 'new' CV design built on the hull of the new BB class - somewhat along the lines of the design studies for converting the Iowa hulls. Not sure if this would be a 'conventional' CV or an armoured deck one, but both would probably be possible on a hull of this size, and 30 knots with the original powerplant would still be workable for a CV.
Thanks John. I know it is my decision at the end of this but I too love these sorts of discussions and all the great thoughts that come from it. We have a mutual admiration society with everyone listed above.
OK. I think the BBs have to be built due to the Gun Lobby. When they are completed Yamamoto has taken control as Navy Minister. He still has to juggle the Gun Club with the Air-Minded Faction so how about a compromise similar to what you mentioned? Japan builds two BBs, Yamamoto moves into the Ministry and he gets a CV and a B-65 or a 3rd BB put in. One for each faction. What do you think?
The CV could be a 'quickie' like Hiryu or another Shokaku. Thoughts with that?
Not wedded to this--just 'tossing' it out.
I believe pre-war and early war carrier doctrine for the Japanese involved carriers operating in pairs. This way they could launch two large strikes in fairly short order. One deck would launch dive bombers and the other torpedo planes, then the second wave would do the opposite. The Hiryu + Soryu and Akagi + Kaga had islands on the opposite sides so the carriers could have clockwise and counter-clockwise landing patterns. Air currents across the deck made the port island more treacherous, so the Shokakus were designed identically with the starboard island.
I don't know what the thinking was with the Taiho. She was laid down just before the war started and she didn't have any sisters, though there were plans to build more. If there had been more resources, I think Japan would have built at least a pair of Taihos are the same time. The Taiho was essentially an improved Shokaku which shows the direction of thinking around 1940.
The Unryus were essentially improved Hiryus which were built because they were smaller and simpler to build than the Shokaku/Taiho class and Japan needed carriers ASAP. The Hiryu/Soryu only existed because of the treaties. They were built to fit withing the tonnage limits of the treaty. If there had been no restriction on carriers, I would have expected the Hiryu/Soryus to be closer in size to the Shokaku, though maybe not quite as advanced.
When Japan was gearing up for war, the Shalkaku and Taiho show where their thinking was with regards fleet CVs. Considering how long the Shokakus lasted and how many times the Shokaku was damaged and returned to the fight, it's testament to their late 30s designs.
I agree with Bill in that Japanese liked to build things in terms of Sentai. Given that, I would suggest you do your BBs in pairs and if you do a CV, have another in the box ready to pull the trigger on.
My personal opinion is to do a 'Kaku Kai'. If I was going to spend budget $$ on a CAG, I would want one that could play with the big boys.
Saying that, I have no idea what a 'Kaku Kai' might be like. Taiho was purt-near a Kai - armored flight deck, hurricane bow, integrated CO2 purge, etc.. but in terms of form, fit and function, the 'Kakus were everything a carrier should be. Ok, just me now, I would build a Ryukaku, with internal improvements and maybe some light armor protection for the flight deck. The follow-on ship would look a lot like Taiho - a further incremental improvement on a damn good design.
I know you are trying to shoehorn ships into a limited environment. I'm trying, but I can only follow things to their logical conclusion. In my view, if you build a CV you will want to clear a yard, somewhere, for the next iteration. This has implications for the next couple years for anything else you may want to do. I don't know how to address that.
This really is like trying to put 10 lbs of ground venison into a 5 lb casing. The Amish do it all the time, and they add wonderful spices, too. Somehow it can be done, with some inventiveness. Anyway, that's my take and I'm sticking to it [8D]
Ciao. JWE
Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.
Funny you Posted this. I was just about to do something similar.
Here is my thinking:
1. Build two 3x3 BBs. They are off the slipways in 1939. To appease the Gun Lobby two of the BCs are begun in those exact slipways. Hey---they just built a pair of BBs why not keep them in the big ship, big gun game??!! Perhaps some form of economy there. These BCs would come into the game in mid-to-late 42 instead of a year later (as it is in RA/BTS presently).
2. Doing this makes things interesting because the slips that I had budgeted to those BC are now open earlier then planned. OK. We add a pair of CVs to the cue. My thinking is that this would be a second pair of Shokaku with slight improvements (Kai's). Instead of getting one Sho-Kai in late-42 the Japanese get two with then a 3rd coming in pretty quickly in early-43.
3. This move slightly accelerates other due dates through the rest of the war.
Seems pretty solid. By the end of 1942 the Japanese gain that CV TF that Michael spoke about: 2 CV, 2 Fast BC, as well as the cruisers and DDs already in the pipeline...
How about that??
PS I really like the slightly armored flight deck idea John. Problem is, what kind of benefit would that result in in game terms?
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Currently, BTS has 6 of the Shokaku-Kai Class CVs.
Kaimon due 7 Aug 42
Taikaku due 25 Feb 43
Renkaku due 2 Sept 43
Taiyo due 12 July 44
Katsuragi due 16 Nov 44
Kasigi due 19 Jan 45
I hope I'm following what JWE just posted, but build two more CVs that the slipway allows after the two BBs are done that follow an improve path that JWE described. So out of 8 CVs, how many remain as Shokaku-Kai Class and how many of the improved version along the lines that JWE speaks of?? IMO, I would go with 4 and 4.
Well...the real question is if you slightly armor the flightdeck, what real benefit do you see through the game. I know that 55MM of armor stops a 1,000lb bomb but I don't see 2 inches of steel covering these flightdecks. Am I wrong there? If one went with 1 inch (25MM) then what does that benefit?
As per arrivals it might (I haven't gone through my building and yard matrix) look similar to this:
Kaimon June 42
Taikaku Oct 42
Renkaku May 43
Taiyo Jan 44
Katsuragi June 44
Kasigi Oct 44
Could try to put another pair in mid-to-late 45 but that seems useless...
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
OK. Here would be a comparison of the Building Programs between REAL LIFE and RA/Between the Storms working with CLs up...
Circle Three RL (7 Ships CL+)
2 Yamato BB
2 Shokaku CV
Nisshin as CS
2 CL (Training Cruiser)
ALTNAV (7 Ships CL+)
2 3x3 16.1" BB
2 Shokaku CV
Nisshin as CVL
2 CA (Niitaka-Class)
Circle Four RL (10 Ships CL+)
2 Yamato BB
1 Taiho CV
7 CL (Agano--Oyodo--1 Training)
ALTNAV (13 Ships CL+) Two additional cruiser-sized slipways are added in Port Arthur in 1940.
2 B-65 BC
2 Shokaku-Kai
1 CVL (Aso-Class)
2 CA
8 CL (Tokoro)
Additional War Time Building
4 Shokaku Kai
2 CVL (Aso-Class)
2 CA
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Sounds like you are engaged in the universe of critical thinking. All power to you. Praise God from who all Blessings flow; Praise Him all creatures here below; Presie Him above, ye heavenly host; Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Thomas Ken, 1637- 1711: Louis Bourgeous, 1510-1561, from the Genfer Psalter ca 16th century.
In game terms, just add some % push to the durability of the ships. Can't think of anything better. And there's nothing in the code that would make it better. Woof !! What you see is pretty much what you get. Wish it were otherwise, but ... . Ciao. JWE
Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.
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