NotOneStepBack(Heroes) vs. meklore61(Evil Nazis) '43-'45 Campaign

[NotOneStepBack]

Yes, I may have made a huge mistake. I lost 125 VPs last turn and 60 troops ships. One of the beach landings failed, and one airborne division was obliterated. I am surrounded on all sides and probably will be pushed off the continent.

We may be in armistice talks soon with the Germans...

Lesson learned, don't invade in winter!

[Seminole]

Yes, I may have made a huge mistake. I lost 125 VPs last turn and 60 troops ships. One of the beach landings failed, and one airborne division was obliterated. I am surrounded on all sides and probably will be pushed off the continent.
We may be in armistice talks soon with the Germans...
Lesson learned, don't invade in winter!

Because I haven't had a game progress to winter I wasn't sure how to read the weather icon (don't see it detailed in the manual).
Was it cold, snow, or blizzard where you attempted the landing? You mentioned the words 'cold' and 'clear', so I'm not sure what the actual weather was.

Amphib invasion attrition in snow and blizzard looks like it would be brutal by the rules.

Imagine jumping into the Channel in February, when the water is <50' F. And then imagine crawling up on the beach in that February weather to 'dry off' under machine gun fire.
Navy SEALs don't even play in water that cold when they're trying to make it through BUDS...

[Baelfiin]

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

Yes, I may have made a huge mistake. I lost 125 VPs last turn and 60 troops ships. One of the beach landings failed, and one airborne division was obliterated. I am surrounded on all sides and probably will be pushed off the continent.

We may be in armistice talks soon with the Germans...

Lesson learned, don't invade in winter!

Can you not just bomb your way to victory still?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

Yes, I may have made a huge mistake. I lost 125 VPs last turn and 60 troops ships. One of the beach landings failed, and one airborne division was obliterated. I am surrounded on all sides and probably will be pushed off the continent.
We may be in armistice talks soon with the Germans...
Lesson learned, don't invade in winter!

Because I haven't had a game progress to winter I wasn't sure how to read the weather icon (don't see it detailed in the manual).
Was it cold, snow, or blizzard where you attempted the landing? You mentioned the words 'cold' and 'clear', so I'm not sure what the actual weather was.

Amphib invasion attrition in snow and blizzard looks like it would be brutal by the rules.

Imagine jumping into the Channel in February, when the water is <50' F. And then imagine crawling up on the beach in that February weather to 'dry off' under machine gun fire.
Navy SEALs don't even play in water that cold when they're trying to make it through BUDS...

I'm glad that someone has tried out this (in-game) option, I tend to an empirical rather than theoretical frame of mind, so its handy to see something tested.

re bad weather naval invasions, one reasons the Soviets were never impressed at the delays of the Second Front was their own experience in the Black Sea region. Their most extreme was the December 1941 landings in the Crimea (-15c, gale, and of course improvised landing vessels). Of course they deliberately ignored the critical difference between the Black Sea and the Atlantic/North Sea and that if the allies got it wrong it would have taken them years to recover.

[NotOneStepBack]

Air was Cold and ground was clear / light snow. The attrition in the channel is what kills you. I can't bomb to victory anymore because it's 44 and the bombing modifier has changed to the point where I bomb now and get at most 5 vps a turn.

[marion61]

Invading in winter is not a good option. The seas are rough, the weather unpredictable, and your ground attacks from weather are reduced. I've tried twice to invade by taking Boulogne, but it's a Fortress, lvl 4 and it's ripping his TF's up as is the Dunkirk Forts. Pinned between two fortresses was very bold. I've always bounced off the Fort of Boulonge so I don't try and don't invade near it, cause it will rip your TF's to shreds in short order. To take it you have to isolate it by land. With one hex to attack it from it's going no where soon. I counted both our CV's that I could see, and that are coming to the invasion site. He's facing 315 CV, to his 104 CV that I can count. Some of my units are just off the map, and the railway interdiction was low enough I had no problem getting there. And yes, I took a plan out of Pelton's book, and had over 100CV on rails around France waiting. Now if he'd invaded in about 3 more turns, he wouldn't have two high CV SS PzGrn div around, or about 44CV would have been gone.

[Smirfy]

Definetaly dont like that sitting about on rails.

[marion61]

I've rationalized it, by telling myself that those divisions are sitting at rail yards already with trains waiting. I guess I don't see the difference between a unit just sitting on rails, not contributing to the garrison value of the zone their in, as opposed to sitting in a zone waiting. Only difference is they have to entrain first. It's an abstraction of reality. So you do sacrifice garrison vp's for doing that, and I only did it when I knew that the invasion was imminent.

[Smirfy]

I cant rationalize it. Why have air base capacity limits its just an abstraction also? Seems to me when you read of the chronic undercapacity and ineffiency of Riechsbann its just middle earth rearing its head. Im sure its a viable tactic and I'm sure you are balancing losing VPs with it but to me thats two abstractions too far as the net result is you have a physical tangible advantage. This is just my opinion you have to play by the mechanics of all games whether its Chess or WITW but as Chess is an abstraction, Knights Moves (that a good name for a codeword) and castling is fine with me sitting on railway cars after reading even a basic history of the debates about the defence of the west is an abstraction too far. Because after all *it* is the principle mechanic

[marion61]

It's all good, we can agree to disagree! I know it's not realistic, but this is a game, and I'm going to play, within the rule set, to win. I'm only human.[;)]

[Joel Billings]

In theory, every 15 CV Panzer division is costing you 3/4 of a VP each turn by being on rails. Also, don't even think about railing through heavily interdicted hexes. You then have to pay to unload from the rails and march in. In Normandy in June you can force the Germans to unload far from the front. Is it really worth it? I agree it seems silly but not sure what to do to prevent it other than the costs I've already listed. You do use up rail capacity every turn, but I doubt the Germans are rail capacity limited, especially during the quiet period.

[marion61]

Your right that you can keep those units on rails off you for a turn or two. I have so much interdiction of just the rails in my invasions that they take heavy losses trying to get close.

Yes it may sap your vp's, but I didn't have them constantly on rails. Just the few turns before he invaded. That railing in your big cv units only works when the interdiction is low and it doesn't extend far. I usually try to extend it 10hexes out from an invasion, so rail those babies in while you take losses going thru it. Every thing has a counter, so the railing in works only on weak invasions. In this particular case the weather cost him his invasion and where he landed. Landing between two level 4 Fortresses was not a wise decision. Ike was probably drunk that night.[;)]

I may regret saying this but, against a human opponent so far I've only had one failed invasion, and that was a dumb diversionary one that just didn't work. Just remember the rule of the 3 P's. Piss Poor Planning, Produces Piss Poor results.

[Seminole]

That railing in your big cv units only works when the interdiction is low and it doesn't extend far. I usually try to extend it 10hexes out from an invasion, so rail those babies in while you take losses going thru it. Every thing has a counter, so the railing in works only on weak invasions. In this particular case the weather cost him his invasion and where he landed.

Can I presume he didn't 'set the table' with a few weeks of air interdiction on your railyards in order to preserve surprise?

[marion61]

That, and the bad weather leading up to it.

[LiquidSky]

I'd use BC or 8th air force occasionally to bomb units on a wide spread area of France just for fun. Maybe it will hit a bunch of those units sitting on rails.