Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942?

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Shouldn't there be negative consequences to Japan for such an adventure that would offset the OOBs inability to deal with it?

I wasn’t trying to open a can of worms over this or anything, I was just looking to emphasize my point about hard coded design decisions and the limitations they cause in game.

In a perfect world there would be a button that becomes active that allied players could push once Japanese troops landed in India. That button would represent some of the Forces from Africa that were used to launch Operation Lightfoot attacks that the allies could designate to come to India (at a significant VP cost of course). I’d say 2 armor divisions and 3 or 4 infantry divisions is not beyond reason should the decision to forgo the attacks have been made. You could even go further and give players a choice, postpone they get 1 armor and 2 inf, cancel and they get 2 armor and 4 inf.

A second button could represent units from Operation Torch, these units would be considerable as the cancellation of that action would represent the wholesale redeployment of the entire force (ships included) to India.

Another possibility would be to simply accelerate the timeline of the reinforcements list for any unit scheduled to arrive in India/Aden by 6 months or something similar to what happens if the US gets invaded.

Jim

If Operation Torch were cancelled, or delayed, it stands to reason supply from the Suez would also be minimal or non-existent?

[Skyros]

There are counter invasion forces for India. See Bullwinkles posts. fb.asp?m=2616532

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

So some design decisions were made in the interest of forcing the Dutch into a hopeless situation and the game fails utterly to model the Dutch mindset of continuing the fight for as long as they could. So hard coding the Dutch replacement pools to prevent their ability to fight on beyond early 42 is a design decision but it does not reflect historical reality. Had they survived the Dutch would have found ways to remain combat capable.

The Dutch were in a hopeless situation. They were in Need of everything. Not just Equipment. They had no crews to fly the aircraft they've purchased. Not enough "white" NCO's for the KNIL. Not enough mechanics. Even not enough crews for their ships. Sumatra was manned by stripping the naval college of its students. Van Ghent was manned by the crew of another DD which got sunk. The Dutch are perfectly modeled.

[Jim D Burns]

No one is arguing that they are missing any units/equipment. I was just commenting on the fact the hard coded replacement pools assume their collapse no matter what. What if a Japanese player decides for whatever reason to not conquer the entire DEI? Are you saying the Dutch should wither away and die anyway?

My post was simply stating the fact that if the Dutch had survived historically they would have found a way to remain combat capable. Probably not nearly as efficient as most other allied powers eventually became, but the US was using wooden rifles and tank and AT gun mock ups for training at wars start. So I have no doubt the Dutch could have worked out their issues too somehow had they not been conquered.

It would have probably been possible to tweak things so the Dutch could remain combat capable in the rare occurrence that some part of the country survives. But the design decision was to simply assume their collapse no matter what and that’s what the replacement pools reflect in game.

Jim

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Skyros

There are counter invasion forces for India. See Bullwinkles posts. fb.asp?m=2616532

I'm aware of these, but I think they only activate if the Japanese decide to go north of Delhi, and most players choose not to cross the line in AARs I’ve read. Even if they do cross the line, basically most of India is already gone long before they will be available to try and save the country. Had Japan landed anywhere in India with sizable forces, I guarantee Africa would have become an afterthought until further notice and most extra troops would have been shipped to India ASAP to stop the invasion.

There was also a very real threat of a general anti-British uprising if Japan decided to announce an independent allied India. The politics on this issue are iffy as they wanted to divide India between Germany and themselves, but if it looked like they needed the help they may have announced it so Britain would have wanted as much military backbone as possible in country to prevent such an occurrence if Japanese troops were marching on Calcutta and other major urban centers.

Jim

[Skyros]

There is always the editor. The real problem is the fact that the Dutch were hesitant to use and arm the native forces without enough European officers to command them. You can add new TO&E for them but I would not have significant squad replacements going past 6/42.

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
No one is arguing that they are missing any units/equipment. I was just commenting on the fact the hard coded replacement pools assume their collapse no matter what. What if a Japanese player decides for whatever reason to not conquer the entire DEI? Are you saying the Dutch should wither away and die anyway?
Jim

Not exactly true. The developers didn't think that way. Dutch are not assumed to collapse, and things were not done to compel that result. It might have that effect, for some, but the Babes DEI scenario, with actual historical units, for both sides, have had the Dutch clean some IJ clock in the hands of a good player.

Think on what Harald Velemans is saying. They could not even crew their warships. The Dutch mobilized everybody. Much of their land OOB is Statwacht, Landwacht or Indish Militie. A significant portion of the KNIL is overage reservists recalled to the colors. The armories had squat, so they took what was left and when that was gone brought their hunting guns, pistols, shotguns, and if they didn’t have a gun they were ammo bearers, drivers, scouts, anything to put a man with a gun on the line.

When you mobilize to that extent, there’s nothing left to go into a pool. They had no manpower reserves; nothing, nichevo, rien, nichts, nothing. They were using 16 year olds from the primary schools and academies. The militia wasn't much help after the fewmets hit the windmill. Like militias everywhere they took French leave and went home to give what protection they could to the wife and family.

Anyone who was deployed in-country in Viet Nam, knows that one. Try talking to a district defense unit commander about an op somewhere. Oh, this should raise some memories. “Cai gi?? O dau?? Xin loi, khong.” Oh, yeah, khong (there’s 7 ways to say no in Vietnamese). Hom, hom, we fight this valley. That valley Chet valley, we no fight Chet valley. Remember that?

There was nothing to fill the pools. There were no pools. That is what the game represents.

Other opinions may, of course, vary.

[m10bob]

Not completely off topic..I do use the editor to produce American made aircraft used by the Dutch for the units which did the historical "Sir Robin" to Australia..Otherwise, they will run out and waiting for one plane every six months is just no fun.
I keep it to the planes I know the Dutch flew, (including those B-25's which Pappy Gunn "swiped back fair and square"...)

[HansBolter]

Time for me to come clean on where I stand.

It isn't so much that I am looking for the Allied side to have the kind of flexibility the Japanese side has, which by the way would only be fair.

It's that I really, really want the Japanese side to have to suffer with the kind of historical handicaps the Allied side is forced to operate under.

I'll go ahead and duck under the table now to avoid the storm of put down I know is coming from the JFBs.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Symon
There was nothing to fill the pools. There were no pools. That is what the game represents.

Not arguing with any of what you say, but the issue was what if the DEI's survived and was never conquered by Japan. In game the force pools simply stop as I assume the designers simply thought they’d be dead so never addressed the slim chance they might live on to fight till the end in a game.

Had they actually survived and not been conquered, there would have been lots of lend lease for sure (Java or any of the big islands would have been viewed as invaluable by the allies and they would have been happy to give the Dutch anything they asked for to keep them fighting). I would also think it’s safe to assume the Prinses Irene Brigade and the Dutch volunteers that were marshaled and organized in England would have found their way to the NEI’s as that would have been territory in friendly hands considered to be their home turf.

I’m not saying the Dutch would have ever been a major military force in the Pacific, but like any peoples involved in war, they would have found ways to remain a viable military threat to their enemies.

Jim

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Time for me to come clean on where I stand.

It isn't so much that I am looking for the Allied side to have the kind of flexibility the Japanese side has, which by the way would only be fair.

It's that I really, really want the Japanese side to have to suffer with the kind of historical handicaps the Allied side is forced to operate under.

I'll go ahead and duck under the table now to avoid the storm of put down I know is coming from the JFBs.

Hans, I hear you, but let me just say this. BTW I'm not a JFB, I just haven't gotten to the Allied side yet. In WitP I played both sides and intend to do so with this game, but let's be honest its an effort to learn how to run the Japanese economy. Oh, and no need to duck under the table, everone is entitled to there opinion.

The Allies (especially the US) are the sledgehammer to Japans' egg. If Japan is restricted to playing an exact historical game (or thereabouts) just how many opponents do you think you'd find?[:D] I mean even with the flexibility given to Japan I would expect to lose to any competent Allied player. Its the flexibility that makes playing Japan any fun at all. I don't know about you, but I hate to lose. That's not to say I'm a sore loser, I just don't like it.

So let the JFB's have some of this and a bit of that, you'll crush 'em in the end.

[rustysi]

Not arguing with any of what you say, but the issue was what if the DEI's survived and was never conquered by Japan

Jim, I'm not arguing with you, and I realize you are saying what if, but...

There are two things wrong with that assesment:

1)Japan has no choice but to conquer the DEI. Oh, maybe the odd island here and there can be left, but in general the DEI must be conquered.

2)The only way the Dutch remain is if Japan doesn't show up (and subsequently forfeits the game).

[Leandros]

ORIGINAL: Skyros

There is always the editor. The real problem is the fact that the Dutch were hesitant to use and arm the native forces without enough European officers to command them. You can add new TO&E for them but I would not have significant squad replacements going past 6/42.

There is another way:

1. Play it like the US transports and units on its way, or just about to leave the US for the Philippines, are not held up but allowed to continue. Big difference.
2. Concentrate the Asiatic Fleet, subs and all, purely to assist in the reinforcement of the Philippines. Hart had this option open to him but didn't use it.
3. Drop the ABDA cooperation as it were and assist, and get assistance from, the Dutch in the Moluccans. They had an excellent Command and Control system there.
4. Do the same with the Anzacs.

These are the main pre-requisites in my book project "Saving MacArthur". That is what I hope to use WitP for....[:)]

What the Dutch needed was a proper influx of support forces from the outside in the right places at the right time. Same could be said of The Philippines...[;)]

Fred

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: rustysi
1)Japan has no choice but to conquer the DEI. Oh, maybe the odd island here and there can be left, but in general the DEI must be conquered.

2)The only way the Dutch remain is if Japan doesn't show up (and subsequently forfeits the game).

Take LA and southern US in the first 6 months and you won’t need anything else lol. Like I said it’s a rare possibility but it can happen... maybe.

Jim

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Not completely off topic..I do use the editor to produce American made aircraft used by the Dutch for the units which did the historical "Sir Robin" to Australia..Otherwise, they will run out and waiting for one plane every six months is just no fun.
I keep it to the planes I know the Dutch flew, (including those B-25's which Pappy Gunn "swiped back fair and square"...)

You do know that even in stock all the aircraft supplied to the real units that Sir Robined are in the game. In fact some of them are already in there twice I believe, which means you're triple dipping some airframes compared to history.

Bill

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Leandros

ORIGINAL: Skyros

There is always the editor. The real problem is the fact that the Dutch were hesitant to use and arm the native forces without enough European officers to command them. You can add new TO&E for them but I would not have significant squad replacements going past 6/42.

There is another way:

1. Play it like the US transports and units on its way, or just about to leave the US for the Philippines, are not held up but allowed to continue. Big difference.
2. Concentrate the Asiatic Fleet, subs and all, purely to assist in the reinforcement of the Philippines. Hart had this option open to him but didn't use it.
3. Drop the ABDA cooperation as it were and assist, and get assistance from, the Dutch in the Moluccans. They had an excellent Command and Control system there.
4. Do the same with the Anzacs.

These are the main pre-requisites in my book project "Saving MacArthur". That is what I hope to use WitP for....[:)]

What the Dutch needed was a proper influx of support forces from the outside in the right places at the right time. Same could be said of the The Philippines...[;)]

Fred

Bring it.[:D] From what I've seen playing as Japan I would love to see a major relief effort to the area (with some possible exceptions as my experience is not great). Like the PI. Lottsa sunk boats, supplies, and troops. Yeah, baby![:D]

Of course, in some of the areas that I would not like to see it I'm sure I'd be wailing like a spoiled child.

I'm working on my game to shut these off.[;)]

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: Symon
There was nothing to fill the pools. There were no pools. That is what the game represents.

Not arguing with any of what you say, but the issue was what if the DEI's survived and was never conquered by Japan. In game the force pools simply stop as I assume the designers simply thought they’d be dead so never addressed the slim chance they might live on to fight till the end in a game.

Had they actually survived and not been conquered, there would have been lots of lend lease for sure (Java or any of the big islands would have been viewed as invaluable by the allies and they would have been happy to give the Dutch anything they asked for to keep them fighting). I would also think it’s safe to assume the Prinses Irene Brigade and the Dutch volunteers that were marshaled and organized in England would have found their way to the NEI’s as that would have been territory in friendly hands considered to be their home turf.

I’m not saying the Dutch would have ever been a major military force in the Pacific, but like any peoples involved in war, they would have found ways to remain a viable military threat to their enemies.

Jim

If any Dutch territory been saved and any air units survived to defend them, they probably would have been equipped with US aircraft. This could be simulated by editing Dutch air units to start using USAAF pool aircraft after mid-42. Best to limit them to just a couple of aircraft types such as B-25s and A-20s for bombers and P-40s for fighters.

The pilot pool and ground unit pools should still not get more devices after early 42. Though you could probably set some equipment like armored cars to upgrade by extending the upgrade path to use American vehicles. Squads type units should be limited until the Netherlands was freed, and even then the resource should be very limited.

Even if you Sir Robin a lot of Dutch units, they will be a spent force after only a few months. They just didn't have the manpower to carry on a lengthy fight. And as John pointed out, a lot of people deserted to protect their families when it became obvious how bad the situation was.

If the Allies had managed to save any of the DEI, it would almost certainly have been manned by somebody else's troops for the most part.

Bill

[Anthropoid]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but, wasn't the whole point of the Japanese declaring war on the U.S. and escalating their war on the European powers with whom they were already at war: to gain control of the entirety of the DEI (with its juicy deposits of oil, labor, minerals, etc.)?

[wdolson]

Um Japan was not at war with any European power before Dec 7/8, 1941.

Bill

[Anthropoid]

I was thinking that Japan was at war with GB, but that was just fuzzy thinking on my part. However!

Hmmm, Indochina invasion of 1940 . . . I guess that technically counted as 'negotiated conquest' of Vichy France?