Sad, sad, sad.......

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: jc4751
it would take a fairly robust rules engine to handle all the "exception to the rule" that those bring to the table

It's interesting that the original Kriegspiel purpose was for training and predictive functions to assess what might or might not work in the future. Now the games tend more toward sims to recreate history down to a gnat's ass detail. See WITE/WITW... Something rather basic and fundamental has been lost along the way, making our "games" more like work than fun. Whatever...

[jc4751]

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

ORIGINAL: jc4751
it would take a fairly robust rules engine to handle all the "exception to the rule" that those bring to the table

It's interesting that the original Kriegspiel purpose was for training and predictive functions to assess what might or might not work in the future. Now the games tend more toward sims to recreate history down to a gnat's ass detail. See WITE/WITW... Something rather basic and fundamental has been lost along the way, making our "games" more like work than fun. Whatever...

Very true. The problem, obviously, is that no matter how much we try to simulate history, or the performance of certain weapons, or whatnot, we're still only simulating it. After spending some time studying the original Squad Leader rules as a kid, my tired brain started imagining a game where the player would play the ultimate simulation of a soldier taking a step in combat, down to what sort of boot he had and the condition of the ground underneath his foot. Of course, I forgot to account for any missing toes...

I think there's a fine line between detail, accessibility, and simulation. A real simulation is something that eludes even the more sophisticated military-grade wargames, and even if they are accurate, the participants may or may not accept the results as valid, with the results often being that the results are discarded or the rules altered and the simulation re-run. There is also a question of how much detail is needed -- I once had a nasty argument with a formerly well-known wargame commentator who saw no merit in tracking ammunition load when Close Combat was being designed. On the other hand, if it adds some flavor and doesn't get in the way of a higher level analysis, then it's not necessarily a bad thing...it probably depends on the willingness of the players and designers to deal with that detail and personal choice. A lot of people, myself included, enjoy WitP:AE, even though I'd consider it probably the most over the top amount of detail ever collected in a wargame

[brian brian]

[rkr1958]

I played my first wargame, Stalingrad, when I was 12 back in 1970. It belonged to my cousin in-law, who is 10-years older than me. One evening he got it out and he, myself, my brother (12-years older than me) and cousin (2-years older and NOT his wife!) played. My brother and I were the Germans and my cousin in-law and cousin were the Soviets. We played and it got late. My brother and cousin in-law dropped out, leaving the game to me and my cousin. I'm sure there were many rules we broke and illegal moves we made. No matter, I had a blast and won by capturing Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad. I was hooked, but didn't get to play any wargame again until 2-years later when my brother got me Avalon Hill's France 1940 for Christmas. I was 14 and this was my very own and first war game. One that I still have today along with all the others I acquired over the years.

Through my teens and early 20's I acquired several more wargames (around 20 or so). My absolute favorites were Avalon Hill's 3rd Reich, Victory in the Pacific, War at Sea, Squad Leader and Cross of Iron. Though I also did play a lot of Panzer Leader and Panzer Blitz.

Then like most, I got married, work demands increased and life / adult responsibilities happened. I didn't have the time or space for playing wargames any longer. Then came the personal computer and computer wargames. AH's 3rd Reich on the PC and then Slitherine's / Matrix's Commander Europe at War (Ground Strategy), Battlefield Academy and Panzer Corps. Not only could I start a game in minutes, where it use to take hours digging through and finding counters, no to mention the time it took reading and interpreting the rules. Also, I could stop a game at most any point save it and pick it up hours or even days later.

It was around then, about a decade or so ago, that I heard of something called WiF and its adaption to computer called MWiF. To say the least the scale and depth of this game overwhelmed me. But, a year ago, I decided to give it a try and have been richly rewarded. I have to say that MWiF is the most in depth, accurate and addictive wargame that I've ever played or could ever hope to play. So I am too sadden but sadden by the negativity around this great game (MWiF) whatever flaws it might have. I hope that we all can stay the course, see it blossom even more and attract new people to it. Unfortunately, life and work dictates that my play remain solitaire, so my only (small as it is) contribution in trying to keep this game going is to post in this forum while others really are doing the heavy lifting.

[Neilster]

I've been here for over ten years and I can remember numerous posts from the early days of this project that said even a computer WiF without an AI, online play and PBEM was a ludicrous dream. And that was when CWiF had been around for years. Well, it basically exists and further progress is being made.

At every stage there have been pessimists and naysayers but Steve has kept stoically plugging away. OK, it's taken longer than we'd like but there isn't an alternative. I don't know about anyone else but there are many other great games to occupy me and a life to lead while MWiF progresses.

I just thought I'd add a bit of perspective. The AI is Steve's main interest in the whole project so I'm sure he's doing all he can to complete the stuff required before he can wholeheartedly embark on its implementation.

Cheers, Neilster.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Love it [:D]

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Neilster

I've been here for over ten years and I can remember numerous posts from the early days of this project that said even a computer WiF without an AI, online play and PBEM was a ludicrous dream. And that was when CWiF had been around for years. Well, it basically exists and further progress is being made.

At every stage there have been pessimists and naysayers but Steve has kept stoically plugging away. OK, it's taken longer than we'd like but there isn't an alternative. I don't know about anyone else but there are many other great games to occupy me and a life to lead while MWiF progresses.

I just thought I'd add a bit of perspective. The AI is Steve's main interest in the whole project so I'm sure he's doing all he can to complete the stuff required before he can wholeheartedly embark on its implementation.

Cheers, Neilster.

G'day Neilster[;)] glad to see your still around, could you recommend to me some of those great games so I could partake in them [:D] no truly glad to see you here.

Bo

[Orm]

Maybe you would enjoy World or Warships when it is released? Looks fun enough for me but my computer can not even run World of Tanks so that is out of my league.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebx89jbm2vw

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Maybe you would enjoy World or Warships when it is released? Looks fun enough for me but my computer can not even run World of Tanks so that is out of my league.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebx89jbm2vw

Thank you Orm my grandson is a beta tester for them and he said it looks great. I play WOT all the time because I have not found one computer game of WW2 strategy that I feel I would like. I was a beta tester for WOT and they still have some big LOS problems. also he is also beta testing a vintage warships game with sails coming out soon, from I believe Steam Greenlight, the graphics are fantastic.

About WOT for the computer I was getting 10 to 18 FPS and it was annoying, I bought a new computer for about $750 US 5 months ago and I am getting 38 to 50 FPS, a great improvement. My machine uses the new intel i7 4770 chip 3,40ghz with 1 mg of ram but a middle of the line nvidia card. Total memory 7.95 GB, works well.

Bo

[brian brian]

re: Advanced Squad Leader - though I never played ASL, I played a lot of the system through Crescendo of Doom. I just wouldn't see any point to computerizing that system. Perhaps using it as a building block for a better game, particularly with the morale and leaders systems for combat results. But if I was going to play that game on a computer, I would want the power of technology harnessed to improve things. Let the computer be a total Umpire, keeping track of where all the soldiers are, which ones can see which ones on the other side, implementing simultaneous movement ... lots and lots of things that are hard to do with cardboard pieces and an I-Go-You-Go system.

World in Flames is the total opposite of Squad Leader, and is well suited to computer play as the game stands. But once some more of everyone's wish list is completed, my wish list is that some day the computer can be used to help streamline the play of the game. Just one simple thing - skipping a request for intercept when a naval force simply leaves port and stops in the first sea zone, as is done in face-to-face play - would speed things up. Any little thing to improve the speed of play is something that would ultimately make the game more popular.

World in Flames : Blitz will lead people to this game, there will always be people in the world more interested in war at a meta-level, though probably not quite so many as there are that just hope that if they play enough Game of War on their phone, they will eventually get to see Kate Upton's breasts somehow.

I rarely have much chance to play any WiF, on paper or a computer screen. I'm self-employed and frequently work really long work weeks, with lots of travel. I know from that what Steve has accomplished is one hell of a feat; also I was a hobby programmer when I was younger. The project never goes backward, it only ever gets better.

I like to see traffic on this forum, as it is my main outlet for participating in the WiF hobby, and it is far from having slowed to a crawl. I suggest to anyone that is looking for more to absorb here that they can turn off the "within last year" option on one of the display menus and look at some of the old threads, particularly the ones Steve uses to begin informing the eventual AI routines. Pretty much every nuance of playing every Major Power in World in Flames, 7th Edition, has already been entered into this forum.

[bo]

We all got off of the original post sad sad sad, lets go back to it I like to hear the comments and feelings of where we are, where we want to go and will we ever make it, speak your mind not what you think other posters want to hear, not that I feel you would ever do that [:(]

Bo

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: brian brian
Just one simple thing - skipping a request for intercept when a naval force simply leaves port and stops in the first sea zone, as is done in face-to-face play - would speed things up. Any little thing to improve the speed of play is something that would ultimately make the game more popular.

I have no issue with the game doing that and don't want it changed. FTF in our group we always ask the other guy if he wants to intercept even when we have zero intention of continuing onward. Why? - because that's one more of his units in the sea zone that will be disorganized. Many times a player will be tempted to intercept when he knows success means a good chance for a favorable split. Many times that same player won't search even if you don't, when he thinks he'd be disadvantaged.

Gamers and optimizers - that's us.

[brian brian]

sure, there are times when there is a reason to ask. but there are times not to ask. if each side has six CLs and several more heavy ships in the West Med already, who cares? sometimes, the answer is 100% obvious. so if you could turn that on and off, that would be great. if you really want World in Flames to be played over a computer by a lot of people, using the computer to smooth the process some would definitely help. the game system has so many hang points already. If the Brits, French, Germans and Italians all go to sparring in the Med, do you really want all four Major Powers to be online simultaneously just to do naval movement?

later in the game, when there are well over a thousand pieces in play, do you really care about the third Bounce Combat generated out of a big air battle to ground strike a key river line hex? I know, Bounce Combat not part of MWiF yet. but I hope MWiF is eventually used to improve the game.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

sure, there are times when there is a reason to ask. but there are times not to ask. if each side has six CLs and several more heavy ships in the West Med already, who cares? sometimes, the answer is 100% obvious. so if you could turn that on and off, that would be great. if you really want World in Flames to be played over a computer by a lot of people, using the computer to smooth the process some would definitely help. the game system has so many hang points already. If the Brits, French, Germans and Italians all go to sparring in the Med, do you really want all four Major Powers to be online simultaneously just to do naval movement?

later in the game, when there are well over a thousand pieces in play, do you really care about the third Bounce Combat generated out of a big air battle to ground strike a key river line hex? I know, Bounce Combat not part of MWiF yet. but I hope MWiF is eventually used to improve the game.

I don't think one can make the program decide for you. There are examples when a large naval force is intercepted by a small force, only to force your opponent to choose a sea box for the moving fleet...
How to program these decisions? How to know when the player doesn't want to intercept or not? That's difficult. Same with all kind of other decisions. The human mind doesn't act the same as a computer.

Personally, the main advantage of MWIF is that it will enforce the rules and do the bookkeeping for the players regarding oil use, reorganisation, supply, control, etc. etc. The downside is indeed the fact that the computer is "stupid" and that you need to click a couple of times more. I don't think there is a good solution for this.

And it will become even worse than it is now.

Look at the things which will happen when the intelligence optional rule gets coded. For every die roll made, the computer needs to know whether or not a reroll will be asked for. That's a lot of extra clicks too and the reason why this rule isn't coded now.

What about "en route" interception. Every 4 hexes a bomber moves, the opponents have to be asked whether or not he wants to intercept if he's got FTR's in range. That's an awful load of extra clicks too...

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: bo

We all got off of the original post sad sad sad, lets go back to it I like to hear the comments and feelings of where we are, where we want to go and will we ever make it, speak your mind not what you think other posters want to hear, not that I feel you would ever do that [:(]

Bo

Where we are?
That's easy: we have a game which is roughly working the way it should in solitair and hot seat. It has still fatal bugs in it which are getting cleared slowly (very slowly) in those modes. However, the basic game isn't even finished for those modes of play. Netplay is slowly, but surely being worked on too. The rest is waiting in the mothballs, where on some items work has already been done where on others there is nothing coded.
Will we ever make it?
I don't know. That's a crystal ball for me. If Steve were a 30 year old programmer in good health, I would say yes. But he isn't. So let's hope Steve stays around for a long time and his health will improve (he's working on that).
But it will still take a long, long time before everything will be ready, even with a healthy Steve around. There is so much work left in this game.
Where is a second programmer when you need him (or her)? But there aren't resources for that available...

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: bo

We all got off of the original post sad sad sad, lets go back to it I like to hear the comments and feelings of where we are, where we want to go and will we ever make it, speak your mind not what you think other posters want to hear, not that I feel you would ever do that [:(]

Bo

Where we are?
That's easy: we have a game which is roughly working the way it should in solitair and hot seat. It has still fatal bugs in it which are getting cleared slowly (very slowly) in those modes. However, the basic game isn't even finished for those modes of play. Netplay is slowly, but surely being worked on too. The rest is waiting in the mothballs, where on some items work has already been done where on others there is nothing coded.
Will we ever make it?
I don't know. That's a crystal ball for me. If Steve were a 30 year old programmer in good health, I would say yes. But he isn't. So let's hope Steve stays around for a long time and his health will improve (he's working on that).
But it will still take a long, long time before everything will be ready, even with a healthy Steve around. There is so much work left in this game.
Where is a second programmer when you need him (or her)? But there aren't resources for that available...

Ah we are back on track, thank you centuur, I think [:(]

Bo

[Zorachus99]

Are you feeling depressed Bo? Or do you have Beta forum inside knowledge to make me cry?

[jc4751]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: bo

We all got off of the original post sad sad sad, lets go back to it I like to hear the comments and feelings of where we are, where we want to go and will we ever make it, speak your mind not what you think other posters want to hear, not that I feel you would ever do that [:(]

Bo

Where we are?
That's easy: we have a game which is roughly working the way it should in solitair and hot seat. It has still fatal bugs in it which are getting cleared slowly (very slowly) in those modes. However, the basic game isn't even finished for those modes of play. Netplay is slowly, but surely being worked on too. The rest is waiting in the mothballs, where on some items work has already been done where on others there is nothing coded.
Will we ever make it?
I don't know. That's a crystal ball for me. If Steve were a 30 year old programmer in good health, I would say yes. But he isn't. So let's hope Steve stays around for a long time and his health will improve (he's working on that).
But it will still take a long, long time before everything will be ready, even with a healthy Steve around. There is so much work left in this game.
Where is a second programmer when you need him (or her)? But there aren't resources for that available...

Ah we are back on track, thank you centuur, I think [:(]

Bo

I don't want to start a flame war, but to be honest, this thread is starting to sound like a thread to take some shots at Steve over the quality and future of the game. It's one thing to have some concerns about shelling out some money, and what the state of the game is going to be in a few years, but it sounds like you're intentionally looking for the bad side of where things stand.

I'm planning to buy the game whenever the IRS decides to let me have my own money back. As I said before, I have my own thoughts on the state of things. But, I would also guess that, unlike a lot of people posting here, I've been a lifelong hardcore gamer, and am used to dealing with what is utter garbage hitting the market, vaporware, cash grabs, early access games that never really make it, and so on. Go drop $15 on Starbound and ask yourself where the game is in that turkey. Or $10 on Project Zomboid and see a game that's a real development train wreck. Maybe Quarantine, which had a bug in it that you didn't find until the game was almost completed. Or Minecraft, where the world I'd been working on with my son got completely hosed after a month or two of play. Part of the reason I mostly spend my spare time game coding is simply because I've gotten burned out on the current state of the PC gaming market, and would rather create than play.

As a professional dev, I would probably take a look at the WiF ruleset and maybe take a different approach from what Steve did, but that's under the hood. And, he's the one who decided to pick this beast up and run with it, and my hat's off to him for that. He also has a lot of experience under his belt, and it's not a field anyone stays in if they aren't any good. They get weeded out, eventually. I'm sure he'd like to have help, but it's damn difficult to get help for what is essentially a project of passion.

I dunno. That's my own two cents. Keep on coding, Steve, and I'm looking forward to getting my hands on this beast soon.

(edit -- another awesome bug was in the very last mission of the PC port of GTAIV -- clearly, no one in their QA department ever bothered to test the whole game all the way through and find out a human being can't mash a space bar 100 times a second)

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: jc4751
As a professional dev, I would probably take a look at the WiF ruleset and maybe take a different approach from what Steve did, but that's under the hood. And, he's the one who decided to pick this beast up and run with it, and my hat's off to him for that. He also has a lot of experience under his belt, and it's not a field anyone stays in if they aren't any good. They get weeded out, eventually. I'm sure he'd like to have help, but it's damn difficult to get help for what is essentially a project of passion.

+1

Steve has the rare combination of WiF experience, programming experience, AI experience, and the passion to make it happen. It's a complicated enough game to start with, but throw in all of the optional rules combinations and NetPlay synch issues and everything else, then it's amazing he's gotten this game to where it is. Yeah, we would all like for him to work faster, but it is what it is. At least the project continues to move forward and continues to improve. At some point, sooner or later, it will be essentially done. Never done done, but close enough, and then there will be necessary updates for new O/S and such, and who knows what.

It would be nice if Matrix finds some way to attract "assistant programmers" to help the lone wolf developers, to help provide some support where practical and be a back-up if necessary. For example, continued EiA development is pretty much dead in the water since Marshall Ellis has stopped working on the code (maybe temporarily, maybe not?), and other games bite the dust eventually when they hit the point of no return. But some games like CEAW manage to allow the community to contine development (e.g., the Grand Staregy mod project), and other games like TOAW get a new programmer to update the old workhorse. Point is, like EiA, we do not need to watch MWiF get 90-95% completed and then bite the dust. That would just suck, again.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

Are you feeling depressed Bo? Or do you have Beta forum inside knowledge to make me cry?

I am depressed I will not lie to you, I have never lied to anyone on these posts, I have no inside knowledge about any impending doom of MWIF if that is what you are referring to. I am fed up with the time this game has taken and the release of the game on Nov 7th. Yeah yeah Bo we heard you many times, chill out Bo. [;)]

I do know that Steve is doing the best he can with an extremely difficult program, and just might solve the problems with the game. Zorachus99 I am a pessimist, always was, "what can go wrong, will" My problem is we are hanging on the health and the ability of one very lone programmer.

Hoping for a break through on Netplay so we can get to a subject that I am selfishly interested in the AI. I hope to be around to beta test the AI someday but who knows.

Bo