Belgium capitulates - what a joke...

[Rongor]

I recently stumbled over the Capitulation of Belgium as Entente in a PBEM. Obviously the Belgian morale was depleted by the Germans, despite the Krauts failure to reach Antwerp and the channel coast. Now the Belgian coastline including Antwerp is a neutral Belgian territory. East of this, including Brussels, it is German occupied territory. Front is still running approximately along the France/Germany border.

Consider how stupid this event is:
The Germans didn't attack Belgium to subjugate it or to humiliate it. They aimed to trespass it to reach the channel and turn a flank southwards against Paris from there, circumnavigating the french defense lines in the east. This capitulation now completely destroys the option for that, totally contradicting the historic basis for the overall undertaking of a German invasion of Belgium.
This event is absolute crap imo as it is now.
You could argue the german player taking this option thereby canceling the original war plan and switching to another strategy, excluding Belgium from there on. But even in this case I find it highly doubtful to believe the western entente then would have respected the new "neutral" western part of Belgium, they in no way would have given up the chance to cut into the western flank of the German front.

I think this could deserve some change.

[operating]

ORIGINAL: Rongor

I recently stumbled over the Capitulation of Belgium as Entente in a PBEM. Obviously the Belgian morale was depleted by the Germans, despite the Krauts failure to reach Antwerp and the channel coast. Now the Belgian coastline including Antwerp is a neutral Belgian territory. East of this, including Brussels, it is German occupied territory. Front is still running approximately along the France/Germany border.

Consider how stupid this event is:
The Germans didn't attack Belgium to subjugate it or to humiliate it. They aimed to trespass it to reach the channel and turn a flank southwards against Paris from there, circumnavigating the french defense lines in the east. This capitulation now completely destroys the option for that, totally contradicting the historic basis for the overall undertaking of a German invasion of Belgium.
This event is absolute crap imo as it is now.
You could argue the german player taking this option thereby canceling the original war plan and switching to another strategy, excluding Belgium from there on. But even in this case I find it highly doubtful to believe the western entente then would have respected the new "neutral" western part of Belgium, they in no way would have given up the chance to cut into the western flank of the German front.

I think this could deserve some change.

Rongor

Hi! A couple things come to mind: First of all, What turn # is it? and what method (or, what happened/occurred) was being used to force Belgium to go "0" NM? Usually Belgium just holding Antwerp stays around 42 NM, if not attacked and fort (7 PP) is held by a Belgian unit. If all Belgian units are forced off their native soil, or completely eliminated, that causes a big Belgium NM dump, which I think brings it's NM to "0" (not exactly sure how much). If your strategy was to take Antwerp, "TAKE IT", use combined attack with good infantry, artillery air, and naval if possible. Antwerp will fall after no more than 4 turns or so from unrelenting attacks (the defending unit's efficiency will drop to zip). Or, use the strategy to bypass Antwerp and concentrate on flushing out any other Entente units on Belgium soil, which usually means "going for Calais". Whatever is left in Antwerp is usually too weak to be a threat to your rear and can be mopped up later. Here is something I tend to steer away from: Attack neutral Belgium, the only one that get's upset about that, is the English, so what the heck, your already at war with them. Remember you are not playing against the AI, The AI never attacks a neutral country, but your opponent sure can (unlikely in your present situation)!

Bob

[Rongor]

Playing as the Entente I held Antwerp and 3 or so additional belgian hexes south of Antwerp safe, not allowing the initial german push to reach the channel. No we have 1915 and probably my mistake was to withdraw the remaining belgian units from belgian soil and replace them with stronger british and french full size armies, as I was unaware this would lead to Belgium capitulating. So I think the entire logic behind the capitulation doesn't really do good in Belgium at all in a historical aspect.
Since I consider my entente forces in France being strong enough to counterattack the germans now, I really could have used the Antwerpen area to push into the soft western flank of the germans. Probably I now have to declare war to that new western neutral part of Belgium.

What I mainly complain about is the silly capitulation logic in this case, wich lead to an historically implausible outcome.

[operating]

ORIGINAL: Rongor

Playing as the Entente I held Antwerp and 3 or so additional belgian hexes south of Antwerp safe, not allowing the initial german push to reach the channel. No we have 1915 and probably my mistake was to withdraw the remaining belgian units from belgian soil and replace them with stronger british and french full size armies, as I was unaware this would lead to Belgium capitulating. So I think the entire logic behind the capitulation doesn't really do good in Belgium at all in a historical aspect.
Since I consider my entente forces in France being strong enough to counterattack the germans now, I really could have used the Antwerpen area to push into the soft western flank of the germans. Probably I now have to declare war to that new western neutral part of Belgium.

What I mainly complain about is the silly capitulation logic in this case, wich lead to an historically implausible outcome.

Whoops! Did not read your first post close enough... Many times I let the other guy (CP) reach the coast, then tear into their unit or units with the dreadnaughts and air power to the point they are useless. It would be nice to have a Belgian infantry in Antwerp that has some techs under it's belt, usually by turn 20 they have Barbed wire and Industrial Warfare, plus full supply. Yes, if the Germans are stalled assaulting Antwerp, that should have opened up for the French and English to beef up to do as you had planned. Also there is another option: to put the Belgian unit in that swampy Belgian coastal hex (maybe one hex side exposed) and let the Big Boys defend Antwerp, that way Belgium would be less likely to surrender. It's tough mistake by exiting the Belgians, so at least you learned a game feature, all you can hope for is: That the other guy makes blunders too! Mistakes are what all players look for or regret.. I'm no history nut, but I believe Historically the Belgians only survived the war by only holding onto one small part of their country, so game wise the result of their army having left makes sense to me, although it was a blunder.

[Rongor]

If I as the Entente now declare war to this western neutral Belgium, will this keep USA and others off from joining me?

[operating]

ORIGINAL: Rongor

If I as the Entente now declare war to this western neutral Belgium, will this keep USA and others off from joining me?

In the below SS is the Belgian information window. It first describes Belgium as being neutral, even though at the time of this SS Belgium is listed as Entente. According to the info, if the Entente declared war on Belgium it would not effect other nations one way or the other. I have not tried to see if lua files tell a different story.

<EDIT>
I'd be concerned if it affects Italy (# of turns in SS), if does not then you are OK.

<EDIT again>

On turn 1 Serbia cannot declare war on Belgium and later "NO" Entente countries can declare war on one another..

[Rongor]

I also assume this behavior changes after Belgium being reset to neutral by capitulating. An Entente friendly neutral Belgium doesn't make sense for the part of Belgium which is represented as having achieved a peace deal with the germans recently.

Well thanks!

[operating]

ORIGINAL: Rongor

I also assume this behavior changes after Belgium being reset to neutral by capitulating. An Entente friendly neutral Belgium doesn't make sense for the part of Belgium which is represented as having achieved a peace deal with the germans recently.

Well thanks!

Not sure what you are getting at? but, it could be the difference between "conditional" and "unconditional" surrender.

[ceuser]

I had the same problem (playing as CP). Belgium capitulated a few turns after losing its last city (Antwerp) but before I was able to conquer all its territory.

Well I can just declare war again, right? The problem is that allied troops are instantly evicted when a country surrenders. This opened a big hole in the Entente line. I could have grabbed Calais without much trouble. Moving the enemy out of my way really breaks the game balance.

IMO Belgium should never surrender unless France does.

[Hellfirejet]

There is an easy fix to this problem,since Belgium surrenders,when none off its forces are still in Belgium territory, I could easily place a Small Garrison unit in Antwerp,safe in the knowledge that this unit cannot stray more than 1 hex from the city,another thing that will help Belgium,is the addition of 2 new Commanders to boost her land units defence strengths.[;)]

[operating]

ORIGINAL: kirk23

There is an easy fix to this problem,since Belgium surrenders,when none off its forces are still in Belgium territory, I could easily place a Small Garrison unit in Antwerp,safe in the knowledge that this unit cannot stray more than 1 hex from the city,another thing that will help Belgium,is the addition of 2 new Commanders to boost her land units defence strengths.[;)]

Kirk, the only problem with an SG as city defense is: It has no AA, low defense rating, cannot be upgraded and will bust after a couple of German infantry assaults, even if it had a commander. The Belgian swamp hex on the coast cannot be entrenched either. Bob

[Hellfirejet]

I know that the Small Garrison is virtually just cannon fodder, but if at the start of a scenario,there is a Small Garrison in Antwerp,it is a simple task of swapping it out with a stronger unit,the main reason for having the Small Garrison units,is that none off them can leave their own Countries territory ever,anywhere on the map.[:)]

[ceuser]

I don't quite get how a change to unit deployments could solve the problem. It'll always be possible to take Belgium's cities, destroy or push back its armies, and still get stuck trying to oust the French from the last few Belgian hexes (as happened historically). Toughening up Antwerp would just delay the problem.

Historically, Belgium never surrendered despite having 95% of its land occupied. Serbia was a similar case. Comparatively, their in-game versions are crybabies. [;)]

[operating]

ORIGINAL: kirk23

I know that the Small Garrison is virtually just cannon fodder, but if at the start of a scenario,there is a Small Garrison in Antwerp,it is a simple task of swapping it out with a stronger unit,the main reason for having the Small Garrison units,is that none off them can leave their own Countries territory ever,anywhere on the map.[:)]

Kirk, The thing is: Will the AI have the smarts to swap out Belgium SG with some other unit? I don't think so.... In MP the SG could come in real handy (mainly as cannon fodder in another hex), depending on what CP accomplishes. Also question SP effect (drain) on MP when lost and upkeep (drag on NM & PP). Bob

[operating]

ORIGINAL: ceuser

I don't quite get how a change to unit deployments could solve the problem. It'll always be possible to take Belgium's cities, destroy or push back its armies, and still get stuck trying to oust the French from the last few Belgian hexes (as happened historically). Toughening up Antwerp would just delay the problem.

Historically, Belgium never surrendered despite having 95% of its land occupied. Serbia was a similar case. Comparatively, their in-game versions are crybabies. [;)]

ceuser, keep in mind this a game, some things are held as "A Historical", at the same time playability often becomes first and foremost while maintaining a WW I appeal. Bob[;)]

[AEWHistory]

How are people dealing with the potential surrender of Belgium in MP and the eviction of French troops. I've just started playing MP but I can already see some game mechanics that can be "gamed" and this is t the top of my list. Any human player could really screw the game up, but what can you do?

In SP I never take Antwerp until I have all of the rest of Belgium. This way when Antwerp falls no units are forced from their positions and nothing funky happens..... I don't think this is a workable scenario for mp tho.