Limited Orders, FPC-RS vs Assault!

[z1812]

Why not leave it as an option. Then each player can suit themselves.

[Mad Russian]

It always was an option. Apparently that wasn't a good option.

Good Hunting.

MR

[griffin115]

ORIGINAL: z1812

Why not leave it as an option. Then each player can suit themselves.

+1

[Tazak]

Utterly disappointed that this feature will be taken out, it may not be perfect and have its flaws but its still useful and adds an interesting OPTION to make the gameplay a more challenging.

WHINE TIME - why are you removing an OPTION, if people don't like it, feel its not realistic, <insert other issue with limited orders> - they don't have to use it - its not hard to put in or remove a tick mark from one of 6 options (this is not an attack on anyone or any person's stance - this is me letting of steam!)

[Flef]

It is a wonderful option that makes the game feeling different from many others. I really like to prioritize my orders when there is a lot of things to do. I would even vote for more limitations and some tiny enhancement to prevent some easy exploits to bypass the limited orders threshold.



I don't understand really why people are complaining about the AI not being limited. The AI is absolutely not a good player, it can have a tiny advantage, it won't change anything. Limiting the AI would be like cutting the arms to a disabled person in a wheeling chair.

[Tazak]

Looking at a few scenario’s from a frequency perspective where EW level stated is how much EW NATO & WP are subject too, and timings (CC=command cycle i.e. length of time between ability to issue orders) are taken from the scenario editor and the NATO player C3 tab after loading the scenario.

Fulda Frontier of Freedom – med EW – NATO CC 22min, WP CC 21min
Test of wills – high EW - NATO CC 28min, WP CC 27min
Hell’s crossroads – high EW - NATO CC 29min, WP CC 27min
Eyes, ears and teeth – high EW - NATO CC 29min, WP CC 27min

Looking at these in the scenario editor tells me 2 things 1). WP are able to give orders as frequently (if not quicker) with the same EW impact, and 2). It presents a skewed impression of NATO’s C3i capability. I believe people want either NATO to issue more orders more frequently or WP issue less orders less frequently, however we can only change/mod the more/less orders but have no control over the frequency of issuing orders (it appears set based on the number of HQ vs. units and possibly some modifier for either NATO & WP).

The only way to impact this frequency is via losses during the game, maybe we need some way to increase/decrease by various percentages

OR are we looking at this from the wrong perspective, is this the only thing that needs getting cut. If your playing solo its the only indication of when the AI issues orders, we don't see when or wont see how many. It appears a seamless transition between the tactical AI making on-the-fly adjustments and the Enemy AI issuing new orders

[cbelva]

ORIGINAL: Tazak

Utterly disappointed that this feature will be taken out, it may not be perfect and have its flaws but its still useful and adds an interesting OPTION to make the gameplay a more challenging.

WHINE TIME - why are you removing an OPTION, if people don't like it, feel its not realistic, <insert other issue with limited orders> - they don't have to use it - its not hard to put in or remove a tick mark from one of 6 options (this is not an attack on anyone or any person's stance - this is me letting of steam!)

Ok, reality check. There has been no decision to remove limited orders from the game engine going forward. In fact the last decision that I know of is that it was going to remain. Rob and Capn D are the final arbiters of this since the game is their brainchild and they do all the hard work of coding.

There is frustration right now with some people with limited orders because it is not what they want. And it might not ever be what they want. The variable command phase is the direction of this game to simulate the command and control difficulties in modern combat. When you add the variable command phase with the orders delays that you experience once an order has been issued, you get a fairly involved command experience. And it works pretty good (IMHO). Someone complained that the variable command phase affects the entire formation. That is true, but there is also another factor involved that does affect only formations. That is the status of the local HQs and the readiness of the subunits. As they get "involved" their readiness drop hurting their ability to disengage or react to a command. Many times I have been frustrated because I waited to long and were unable to extract a formation or get them to respond to a command.
Our priority in development as we move forward is to improve upon this system--and this is room for improvement. We are not saying our system is perfect.

There is a myth that has been repeated that the scenarios are not balanced with limited orders. They are balanced, but the standard was without limited orders. What that means is that limited orders was an option for those who wanted a greater challenge. And it does give a player a greater challenge. Some has mentioned that it was not clear that was the case in the startup screen that it was an option. That may be true in how we presented it and we have talked about how to make that clearer as we go forward.

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: cbelva
Ok, reality check. There has been no decision to remove limited orders from the game engine going forward. In fact the last decision that I know of is that it was going to remain. Rob and Capn D are the final arbiters of this since the game is their brainchild and they do all the hard work of coding.

There is frustration right now with some people with limited orders because it is not what they want. And it might not ever be what they want. The variable command phase is the direction of this game to simulate the command and control difficulties in modern combat. When you add the variable command phase with the orders delays that you experience once an order has been issued, you get a fairly involved command experience. And it works pretty good (IMHO). Someone complained that the variable command phase affects the entire formation. That is true, but there is also another factor involved that does affect only formations. That is the status of the local HQs and the readiness of the subunits. As they get "involved" their readiness drop hurting their ability to disengage or react to a command. Many times I have been frustrated because I waited to long and were unable to extract a formation or get them to respond to a command.

Our priority in development as we move forward is to improve upon this system--and this is room for improvement. We are not saying our system is perfect.

cbelva, thank you for the response. At the end of the day, the unit readiness effects and orders delays may get close enough to modeling NATO vs Soviet C2 differences.

For the future of LO, I'd at least respectfully ask that this get implemented for the AI, if not possibly for the v2.09 update then for v2.1, and also provide some editable parameters for the order limits so we can experiment. And it may well be that the AI will not be up to it, but that's another issue. Anyways, it's a fine game and I was playing some of mwest's new First Contact scenario last night. As I've said before, I'm looking forward to whatever improvements and enhancements you guys decide to make.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Tazak

Utterly disappointed that this feature will be taken out, it may not be perfect and have its flaws but its still useful and adds an interesting OPTION to make the gameplay a more challenging.

WHINE TIME - why are you removing an OPTION, if people don't like it, feel its not realistic, <insert other issue with limited orders> - they don't have to use it - its not hard to put in or remove a tick mark from one of 6 options (this is not an attack on anyone or any person's stance - this is me letting of steam!)

This feature may not be taken out. I have simply removed my support for it. I was the only member of the team that pushed to have this in the game at the time of release. It was tested only enough to make sure it worked like we wanted. But since the release this has gotten the most discussion time after the Sudden Death feature. If it gives you guys this much heartburn I'll simply remove my support of the feature. That would mean that William would now be the sole supporter for the feature.

I much prefer it but I'm not going to continue to spend 80% of my forum time discussing an issue that has been discussed from one end to the other. I'm not going to promote that we create a clone for any particular favorite game for anyone, and we listen. So, if the prevailing feeling is that Limited Orders is broken and it will take a tremendous amount of work on our part to put it into what may be an acceptable state then I'll withdraw my support for it being in the game.

Good Hunting.

MR

[governato]

Ok, reality check. There has been no decision to remove limited orders from the game engine going forward. In fact the last decision that I know of is that it was going to remain.

Good!

[CapnDarwin]

Charles is right. No set in stone decree from on high. Having difficulty options and other optional rules you guys can set is an important part of the game system. We will be making a number of changes in things (hopefully for the better) as we go forward in 2.1, but we do want to leave you guys with a wide range of options in play and in content generation.