Historical Accuracy problems

[vaalen]

First, let me say that this is avery good game, with great AI, and I am not concerned with historical accuracy in every little thing, just the major concerns.

The invincibility of Early veteran Tercios is not accurate, especially not against the Swedes.Yet in the game, I have repeatedly lost the battle of Breitenfield because the veteran Early Tercios defeat my Swedish infantry.

I think the main problem is that these Tercios have no vulnerability to flank or rear attacks, even when they are engaged in melee. This means that attacking them in the flank or rear is not effective, whereas it was historically.

True, these formations could form the hedgehog, a square formation that would prevent flank attacks, though they did not always succeed in forming this. But, the very nature of the formation preluded movement, so they could not attack while in this formation, and would be totally unable to form it while engaged in melee. Yet in the game, they have all the benefits of the hedgehog, alwaus, and none of the detriments, as they can attack without any restrictions while remaining immune to flank attacks.

I suggest that this be fixed by having any unit engaged in close combat be vulnerable to flank attacks, and having the hedgehog have a chance of not forming whenever an unengaged Early Tercio is attacked in the rear.

The second issue is the poor firepower of salvo infantry.
There is no doubt that these units had much greater firepower than the Tercios. Yet in the game, because much of this firepower is reserved for close combat, the Early Tercios can easily win a musketry duel with salvo infantry, even if the salvo infantry has regimental guns. Not accurate at all.

In the Bretenfield scenario, either the Tercios willl foten stand off and shoot down the Salvo infantry until they break, while taking less casualties from the weak Swedish return fire.
If the Salvo infantry charges them, the tercios will get by far the worst of the initial exchange, but they usually will not break, and as melee continues they will often do better than the Swedes.The AI will also be able to hit the Swedish infantry in the flank, as the lines break up due to retreats, etc, and the Swedes can never flank atttack them. While the Swedes will win some battles, most of their infantry will be routed by the veteran tercios, and the game lost.

I do not know how this can be fixed, but it is a major accuracy problem.

[rbodleyscott]

The shooting capability of a single Swedish salvo battalion (of circa 580 men) and a veteran early tercio (of circa 2,000 men) are almost equal at close range (because of the regimental guns). At long range, the Salvo foot have a major shooting advantage.

Gustavus Adolphus organised his battalions into brigades of 3 battalions - totalling 1,740 men.

This is what he expected to face off and defeat an Imperial tercio.

In the game, 3 Swedish salvo battalions have nearly 3 times the firepower of a veteran Imperial early tercio at close range and about 5 times the firepower at long range.

It certainly would not be realistic if a single Swedish salvo battalion could successfully face off a veteran Imperial tercio numbering nearly 4 times as many men.

[vaalen]

I did not realize that the Swedish infantry units represent only a single battalion, rather than a whole brigade.

But in terms of what actually happens in the game, the AI will present you with a solid line of units, which means that in most cases you will never see three Swedish infantry units fighting one Tercio,
In Fire combat, it is possible to have three battalions fire at one tercio, but it is just as likely to see three tercios fire at one battalion, which I have seen the AI do many times. The Swedes have no advantage.

in close combat, In most cases, it will be one battalion against a whole brigade, which does not seem accurate at all, as Gustavus was quite successful in defeating the veteran tercios at Breitenfield, and the Swedish infantry was quite successful in most of the battles they fought. In fact, the Imperials changed their infantry composition and tactics to try to deal with the Swedish infantry superiority.In the game, they have no reason to do so.

Do you have a response to the no flank attack on tercios issue I raised?

In any event, I appreciate the time and trouble you have taken to respond.And I very much appreciate this fine game.

Best wishes,

Vaalen

[rbodleyscott]

ORIGINAL: vaalen

Do you have a response to the no flank attack on tercios issue I raised?

Only that my view as designer is that if the Tercios were vulnerable to flank attacks when in melee, they would be too easy to defeat.

It is true that massed Tercios are very effective (although the Breitenfeld scenario is in fact fairly straightforward to win).

The reason that Tilly continued to use huge units equivalent to early tercios in the Catholic League army (when the Imperial army had abandoned them and was using smaller battalions) is that as a general he favoured attacking, and they did pack a higher localised punch than the new shallower formations. The Swedes have to work with that - they really should not expect to be able to match them on a 1 unit to 1 unit basis.

Early tercios are not nearly so effective in "equal points" skirmishes, because they are so expensive in points, so you don't get very many of them.

Giving them a chance to not form up in time when attacked from the rear is tantamount to giving them full vulnerability to the rear, because you would have to constantly try to avoid it, as you currently don't.

[vaalen]

I see, this is a design decision that facilitates the working of the skirmish system.I am thinking that I should try some skirmishes as the Swedes against the imperials, and perhaps I will find the situation where you can match three Swedish battalions against one tercio.

You are much better at the game than I am. At Breitenfield,I have learned how to defeat the left Cavalry wing of the imperial army,but the charge of the tercios always defeats me.

Would you consider sharing how it is straightforward to defeat the tercios in that battle?

Best Wishes,

Vaalen

PS Brilliant design!

[rbodleyscott]

I did not say that it was straightforward to defeat the big Catholic League tercios, but by the time they reach you, you should have almost defeated the army by defeating the enemy left wing and the smaller Imperial tercios. You should then be able to bring multiple units to bear on at least some of the Catholic League tercios.

P.S. I try to avoid giving spoilers on how to beat the scenarios - I will leave that to other users if they feel so inclined.

[vaalen]

I do appreciate the hints you gave, even thought you try to avoid giving spoilers.

By the way, I did try a skirmish as the Swedes, against an imperial force. I was defending, and bought as much Salvo infantry as I could. The imperial army was twice my size, in men, anyway, I was ableto actually defeat them, destroying all their infantry, by concentrating several units on the big tercios, just as you advised. Very enjoyable, and one of the few times I have beaten the AI after the tutorial.When you win a scenario in this game, you really have accomplished something.

Thanks again,

Vaalen

[vaalen]

With the new patch, and the above explanations, all my issues have been resolved. The game has a high degree of historical accuracy.