Last Days of the Third Reich; recap of game v Meklore

[Q-Ball]

I haven't had time for a full AAR, but I am going to post some results and thoughts on my game vs. Meklore. I am doing this in the interest of play balance, as IMO, the Germans are too strong, both in the VP count and on the ground. I have a couple ideas for tweaks to share, but wanted to go with results first.

Overall:

This game is EF Box ON (as you can see), and it was my very first PBEM with WITW. Meklore is a very skilled and gracious opponent, so great learning game this was. I really struggled with the airpower initially, though I played WITE, so knowledge of the ground engine really carried over.

Current date on all screenies is 2/24/1945; last week of February, with spring rains on the way

Meklore has masterfully used the Allied airforce tactically. Interdiction has been fierce, and he has used rocket-equipped planes to really do a number on armored units and whatnot. I've probably lost over 4000 AFVs just to aircarft. Meklore also has landed in good spots with good pre-invasion prep. He landed in Picardy, and initially we were able to bottle him up; his paras landed right on SS units and were destroyed, so we were able to pin the invasion to the beach for a time. But eventually, relentless allied airpower and attacks, plus a secondary landing the south of France, resulted in a retreat being ordered by me in August.

For a time, I thought he would barrell into Germany, but I withdrew to the favorable terrain along the German border, and the Germans get alot of new infantry units in Fall 1944 which saved the day.

WITE experience has served me well, as I am familiar with how to slowly withdraw to trade space for time, keep units from getting cut-off, and use Terrian and Reserves in defense. I never use Panzer units on the front lines, always in RESERVE.

EF Box and Replacements:

Here is the first screenie, the EF Box. I over-pulled from this box early, incurring 150 VP point penalty, but put units back later. As you can see, the EF Box is in pretty solid shape for 1945. Many infantry divisions are UNREADY, but I still have some on REFIT to keep strength up. Overall, Uncle Joe is behind.

The Eastern Front has used 2 mil Manpower replacements, and 5500 AFVs. I have used 917K in the West, but 8500 AFVs; less than 33% of the Manpower, but over half the AFVs. This is probably because of my policy of ONLY refitting Panzer and Para units; I have not had a single infantry unit on Refit since June of 1944.\

One recommendation: EF Box should be OFF for all games at this point. It is too easy to pull units, and the penalty/reward for managing the Wehrmacht is not enough.\

Replacements: I only set Panzer and Para units to REFIT; I have re-built some Panzer units several times. I do not provide any Infantry replacements; in fact, I have used MERGE for UNREADY infantry alot, something I never did in WITE. I think in this case, it makes sense, because I would rather have 1 good unit than 2 Depleted ones. I do lose some diggers, but I would rather keep the Wehrmacht infantry in business, and this is really the only way to do it.

I have also liberally disbanded units for Manpower to put in the line. I disbanded the WBef HQ units, and tons of city FLAK units. I have even disbanded a few STUG units, only because there just are not enough to go around. More on this later, but I think FLAK disbands are open to abuse.

[Q-Ball]

Here is a screen of the front at Meklore's furthest place of advance. He is in Germany, and I have just ceded some clear hexes west of the Rhine, as he has bashed through my forts.

The Real West wall, IMO, is not the forts right on the German border; like WITE, forts can be easily destroyed, but terrain cannot, so it's better to use terrain. If you use a line roughly Maas River-Ardennes Forest--Moselle--Vosges, you get much better terrain, and some breathing room before Germany. This is where I primarily made my stand.

As you can see, most of my infantry is in the 2-4 CV range, not terrible considering I have lost over 1 million men in the West. Like I mentioned, I have also been aggressive with MERGES because I would rather have viable units than lots of UNREADY units that just get pushed around.

Outside of this shot, the WA are on the Maas River, Moselle, and Vosges line. In Italy, I am retreating to the Austrian Alps; I pulled units from Italy until the line was just too thin. Germany is way more important that defending northern Italy. A handful of units can hold the Austrian Alps line through Spring, which is all I need.

[Q-Ball]

Here are the VPs. Some thoughts here:

1. VP Balance heavily favors Germany, IMO.
2. Meklore is short on Strategic Bombing VPs; part of that is that he tried an anti-Vehicle campaign which failed, because the factories repair too quickly. Part of that is that he uses 4E bombers ALOT on ground attack. I'm sure Meklore's next game he'll get more VPs here easily.
3. The Partisan VPs were just early rookie mistakes on my part, and probably are not repeatable.
4. My only other criticism of Meklore's game is that he is sometimes over aggressive on attacks, and loses alot, most of the time because of a RESERVE commitment by an SS unit or similar. Not sure the fix, but WITE does teach you to use overwhelming force and be sure.

Losses:

Allied: 977,000 men, 27,000 AFV, and 50,000 A/C

Germany: 1.03 mil men, 8,800 AFV, and 36,000 A/C

With those losses, the ratio for WA is a little high, you hope to kill more Germans than lost WA. The AFVs are expected. Allied aircraft losses are high, but so is the LW; the Luftwaffe is down to under 2000 planes in this one.

Production: Other than Manpower and AFVs, German production numbers have plenty of everything, including Fuel, Oil, Supplies, Resources, Armaments, Weapons, you name it. Aircraft is pretty short, but I don't have pilots anyway. Manpower is the thing Germany runs out of.

[Q-Ball]

In summary, I think it's too easy to keep the Wehrmacht in business late into the game. Granted playing EF Box ON gives you some extra units, and turning it OFF would prevent that in this game; but EF Box OFF actually IMPROVES your Manpower replacement situation.

The reason EF Box OFF is better on German Manpower, is because
a) you get 40% of all production; in my game, the West got only 33%, with the rest going East
b) Even more important, you get 100% of all disbands. With EF Box ON, I've been getting 33% of all disbands, not 100%. This is also why I MERGE units, because that's the only way to retain the disbanded men on map.

So, I recommend a couple changes to give the Allies some needed help on the ground:

1. PLay EF Box OFF
2. Reduce the Production Multiplier for all Axis except Italy in 1943, from 40% to 20%. 20% makes way more sense anyway, given the relative commitment Germany had to the East at this time. (BTW, side not, ITALY should always be at 100%, as all Italian production after 1943 was retained in the West). This will limit the accumulation of surplus Manpower and AFVs in 1943...I think those guys were needed out East.
3. The ability to disband city FLAK should be turned off for all units in Germany. If there is a political cost to move a unit, surely it should not be disbanded. Yet, you can free up 4000 replacements by disbanding a FLak Regiment in Rostock, for example, for 1 AP. This should be turned off. I can see allowing DISBANDS for Flak in France or Italy. Holland/Denmark up for debate.

British City Flak cannot be disbanded, so it stands to reason that should not be possible in Germany

These relatively minor changes will increase the Manpower crunch on Germany....as it should be. The Wehrmacht was disbanding infantry units already after Normandy, ultimately Germany ran out of men. The result should help the Allies a bit in the late-game.

VPs should also be looked at, but I think a couple tweaks are needed to the German's core capability

[marion61]

If I have a weakness, it's my ground game. I do tend to be over aggressive with attacks, and use heavy bombers for interdiction, but I'm working on finding that happy medium. I've learned a great deal about the ground game, as this is only the 2nd game that I've made it to this date. I played WitE, but I gave up on it before they fixed all the problems it had.

One thing I have noticed is that you weren't out in the open long, and didn't take huge casualties retreating thru a hail of interdiction. I've also learned the importance of ground support, and AS. There's no doubt I've become a better player after this one. I guess I'm more a Patton, than a Monty![8D]

Now all I have to do is get to Berlin before May!

[Peltonx]

Bro the deck is stacked against you, the VP system is off and I only play Germany and I will say this another 1000 times before its changed like amm bug, swapping bugs ect ect ect ect like WitE.

Why listen to sane people.

[Seminole]

One thing I have noticed is that you weren't out in the open long, and didn't take huge casualties retreating thru a hail of interdiction. I've also learned the importance of ground support, and AS.

Does interdiction cause lots of casualties, I thought it just created disruption and thereby drove down readiness. I thought you had to go with unit attacks to really get kills.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

One thing I have noticed is that you weren't out in the open long, and didn't take huge casualties retreating thru a hail of interdiction. I've also learned the importance of ground support, and AS.

Does interdiction cause lots of casualties, I thought it just created disruption and thereby drove down readiness. I thought you had to go with unit attacks to really get kills.

it causes some ... look at the detailed air reports for an interdiction sequence and you'll see where you managed outright kills of men, guns or AFVs.

but yes, the real payback is to hammer combat readiness and you don't get/see the reward for that till you actually launch a ground attack. I'm starting to get a feel for when a seemingly strong unit may actually collapse if attacked, especially if its been intensely bombed for a few turns so you've set up the disruption-fatigue cycle (both of which badly undermine combat value)


QBall - great report and a great idea, adds to the ongoing understanding of how the game actually fits together

[marion61]

If you force a unit to retreat, out of and into or thru another interdiction hex, they will take casualties above what your attack did, based on the amount of interdiction in the hex. They take retreat attrition, then they take interdiction attrition for every hex they move thru to retreat or rout. Every hex they retreat thru there is a chance of equipment or men being damaged or destroyed. I've watched some mighty armored units, the 9th SS PzGrn I attacked and forced a retreat which caused about 1k casualties, but then when it retreated thru a level 8 interdiction hex, it took an additional 5k casualties. It went from a cv of 9, to 1 after the battle and the retreat.

Basically, anything that moves thru an interdicted hex has the potential to lose equipment or it becoming damaged. Also just having a little interdiction in a hex your attacking will help your odds greatly. I like to lock down an area that I'm attacking with heavy ground interdiction, but every turn I keep some of my planes on railway interdiction to shoot up replacements and supplies coming to the front.

The air game has to be woven together to make it work. My only disruptive thread is my strategic bombing. I over use my bombers at times to do interdiction, and I need to find a better balance. It's really about finding the synergies between AD's, and knowing what each one actually does.

[marion61]

Well, the snow fell again this turn, WOOHOO!!! These were my starting positions before the big push to cross the Rhine this turn. I got across in force in one place just above Cologne, but if it turns to heavy rains again next turn, I won't be going nowhere with those guys or in the other breach which was just a cav. squadron. I'm praying it snows next turn, and doesn't come a heavy rain, as I forgot to check the weather last turn.

I should have screenshotted with the industry and rail yards showing. It's costing me some planes, but the Rhur is bombed out almost, rail yards especially. I'm bombing the manpower and heavy industry left as I bomb out all the rail yards that can supply his lines. Only one reserve activation occurred around Cologne, and it wasn't my main attack thankfully. 2nd RAF and the 9th shot up several mobile divisions this turn, as I had almost every air group rested and ready for operations this turn.

I've temporarily resolved my manpower issues with the British and Canadians. At the end of last turn I had disbanded 1st Canadian Army, and placed the Canadian Corps under 15th Army. This got me 26k men, and this turn I disbanded all the Canadian AA units and Arty units. With all the US has, there's no need for the Canadians to even bother with AA or Arty now. As for the Brits, I disbanded the I Br Airborne Corps, and several light AA units. I did this while most of my British and Canadians were refitting so they would get the most possible benefit and they did.

I don't have many turns left till May, and till then the weather will be mostly heavy rains, so there won't be much forward progress from me, and Uncle Joe is being slow as usual.

[Peltonx]

Whys your VP so different from our game meklore?

In our game the score is -625 1st week of October about 22 turns different.

Even if you sit and do nothing

13 turns at 15 VP per turn = 200ish
then I am less because of / turns 9 but we say same = 135

total of 335

-625 - +325 = -300 a difference of at least 538 VP's ! that's a huge difference.

I am not factoring in WA loses. That leaves 8 turns left another 120 VP for total of - 180

I really would like to know why the HUGE difference in VP between the 2 game?

I am guessing Q-ball retreated before I did from France and Italy giving you more city VP or have you lost more men in our game?

I do not use EF and he did and you played this one before ours so your tactics and general game skills should be better.

Why do you two think there is a huge difference in VP's between the 2 games?

No EF box = game ends turn 97 also.

[Q-Ball]

Part of the VP difference is Partisan Garrisons and EF Box. Those combined are about a 300-point swing. I triggered 150 points of Partisan penalties for no gain, because I was new to the engine. Typically, Germans should be able to gain points in this one in early 1944. EF Box was another 150 points, because I didn't know what I was doing. At this point though Russians are way behind.

The other reason for the VP difference, no doubt, is the city points. I abandoned France in August 1944, and Northern Italy in Feb 1945. In our game, Meklore landed in Picardy, east of the Seine, precluding a stand on the Siene.

Here is another shot in our game. I have found the Me-163 to be a pretty useless wonder weapon; not alot of kills, no range at all, etc. It's garbage. The Me-262, on the other hand, is a bad-ass airplane in WITW, just like RL I suppose:

[Q-Ball]

Here is the front after my turn. Meklore surprised me a bit with a good breakout in the north; we are shifting units that way, and I have some Panzer reserves. Panzer Lehr is my strongest division, and it's still on the spot (the 22-CV stack you see).

We pushed him back over the Rhine, but I'm sure he'll cross back over for good next turn

At this point, I think I can keep him around the Rhine river though until Mud hits

It's now March 10, 1945

[marion61]

He did give me some EF box points, but that only accounts for 150 points. In my game with you I didn't take Italy until late in the game and lost out on all those city points for so many turns. In my game with Qball, I didn't skip Italy and took Rome in 43 so I have more points. I've refined my air game since we all started these games, and I've learned to manage my air forces better so I don't get into negative numbers so deep. You've both taught me some valuable lessons.

1. In neither game did I use my present bombing strategy that NOSB came up with. That nets you 10-15 positive points a turn in 43.

2. Qball withdrew from Italy as I made an effort to capture Rome early. He also withdrew a little too far in Italy after Rome was lost, but he got some good defensive ground and held for quite some time.

3. In both games i was trying to find the happy medium between strategic bombing, and using heavies for ground support. Late in both games I've finally found it somewhat.

4. In our game Pelton I've only lost 600k men to your 1million. Vs Qball, I've lost almost a million men to his million men. I took most of these casualties because I was still learning what worked on the ground and what doesn't. I made a lot of unnecessary attacks that caused me precious casualties too.

5. EF box points and garrison points he's given me. I think you gave me a few garrison points, but I can't recall atm.

6. I've caused you more casualties, because you have been out in the open a lot longer than Qball was. It was about 10-12 turns after I landed, he started withdrawing towards Germany, and the better terrain there so I didn't get to shoot him up as much out in the open.

7. I was also trying to get to Germany early in our game, and over used my bombers when they should have been hitting strategic targets in 43. Instead they were hitting your troops in Brittany, and that cost me a lot of points per turn.

The moral of the story is that you really need to take Italy and get those city points when the bombing modifier changes in Jan 44.

[marion61]

The Rubicon has been crossed!!! In Force!!! Before the rains hit!!! I should capture Berlin easily by the 2nd or 3rd week of May now. Two of my crossing have rail, so when the heavy rains hit, those guys won't starve now. And when the rains let up again, I'll have enough supply to Qui Qui in Berlin with the French!

I thought this was funny how over half his casualties for the turn were from air attacks, and I got more tanks from the air than from the 1000's of tanks I have on the ground. I burned some planes up this turn, but it was worth only having a couple good activations from those panzer units.

[marion61]

This was the proverbial "nail thru the heart". Once I breached this major "artery" of defense, the "heart" land would be open to invasion by "foreign bodies", intent on "infecting" the populace with thoughts of "chronic" surrender.

[Peltonx]

The Flu is coming run

[LiquidSky]

That's just sick! [:-]

[Q-Ball]

It's now March 17, 1945. Meklore is over the Rhine to stay. We have committed the last reserves of the Reich, to stop the Allies. I think I have enough at the moment to pin him against the river until Mud; his crossing by the Ruhr is tough to breakout of because of all the cities, the one up by Holland is the main effort. This is where I concentrated the remaining decent Panzer Divisions, to prevent a runaway onto the north German plain.

VPs were sharply negative, due to heavy Allied casualties getting over

My only comfort is that the Fuhrer explained to us, in reasoned, rational tones, that Germany will be inevitably victorious. The German people just have to give it more effort. He's right, we've been loafing since 1940, time to get to work.....

[marion61]

I forgot to take any pics this turn, as most of my Generals were on leave in Paris. The ground is heavy mud this turn, so I made no attacks. Just repositioned units and logistics, and closed the lines up in Italy. Bombing and ground attacks are almost pointless in heavy mud, and the good news is that another LmP is about to move thru the area in the next turn or two, and yes, HEAVY RAIN! I'm just glad I breached the Rhine before they started. Looks like June will by my target date to have Berlin now. There won't be much forward progress in April with all the heavy rains. I'm also glad I got the rails across those rivers. Makes supply a lot easier on those guys across the Rhine.