Leader Deaths

[Mehring]

Just asked my Russian opponent if I'd killed any of his leaders up to end November 41. None, he says, and in spite of dozens of HQ displacements. Has leader protection gone too far in the other direction?

[morvael]

Only displacement of isolated HQs has decent chance of killing. Other ways not do much. Most players get angry when Zhukov is killed in 1941.

[charlie0311]

I managed to get Guderian killed in a pvp game since the fix has been in.

[morvael]

See, this should be now extra rare, so when it happens you'll remember it longer as a very special event.

[smokindave34]

I had Rokossovsky killed in an "accident" in my game against Pelton. I'd like to forget that one....

[Mehring]

Never seen that. Is it a new feature?

[Mehring]

ORIGINAL: morvael

See, this should be now extra rare, so when it happens you'll remember it longer as a very special event.

But it wasn't a rare event. Anything but.

While awaiting my fate at the hands of my current opponent, I had time to research the 151 German leaders available at the 1941 campaign start. Of these, 51, just over one third, were no longer available by the war's end. I did not include the generals captured in May 1945 unless I found it was in combat circumstances rather than national surrender.

Over a third, probably the largest single cause of those killed in action (13) were victims of tactical air attacks (5).
Eleven were taken prisoner, by no means all of them while isolated.

While undefined "retirement" may mask many actual reasons, such as demoralisation or political disfavour, it remains a major loss, accounting for 8 generals, while retirement due to ill health or age accounted for a further 6.






KIA various causes- 8

Walther Graeßner- was wounded in mid-February and later died of his wounds on 16 July 1943.
Paul Laux- Killed recon air crash
Friedrich Mieth- killed Rumania 44
Georg Pfeiffer- Killed Mogilev 1944
Eugen von Schobert- KIA Sept 41
Joachim von Kortzfleisch- KIA March 45
Hans Zorn- KIA Aug 43 Orel area.
Wilhelm Stemmermann- KIA Feb 44 Korsun-Cherkassy.

KIA Tactical Air Attacks- 5

Wilhelm Schneckenburger- KIA tactical air attack Oct 44
Fedor von Bock- Killed tactical air attack May 45
Kurt von Briesen - KIA tactical air attack near Kharkov Nov 41
Erich Marcks- killed tactical air attack Normandy
Robert Martinek- Killed tactical air attack June 44

Wounded- 1

Alfred Schlemm- Wounded March 45

Retired Medical grounds/ Ill Health or Age/ Death due to Illness- 6

Christian Hansen- retired from the Wehrmacht on 31 December 1944, because of illness. He died in 1972.
Walter von Brockdorf-Ahlefeldt- Ill Nov 42, died subsequently.
Wolfram von Richthofen- retired medical grounds late 44
Walther von Reichenau - heart attack Jan 42
Mauritz von Wiktorin- Discharged Nov 44 old age.
Max Heinrich von Schenckendorff - died heart failure Jul 43

Retired no reason stated- 8

Adolf Kuntzen- retired Dec 44
Friedrich Materna - retired 44
Georg-Hans Reinhardt- Retired Jan 45
Alfred von Hubicki- retired March 45
Edgar Theissen- Retired Dec 44
Eberhard von Mackensen- retired from active service summer 44
Albert Wodrig- Retired end Feb 45
Max von Weichs- retired Mar 45

Taken prisoner- 11

Walter Heitz- POW Jan 43 Stalingrad, died of cancer 44.
Edmund Hoffmeister- POW Jul 44
Vincenz Muller POW 44 (SPELLING- WitE calls him Vinzenz)
Ferdinand Neuling - POW France 44
Karl Strecker- POW Stalingrad 1943
Erwin Vierow - POW Sept 44 France
Hans Jurgen von Arnim POW Africa May 43
Kuno Hans von Both- POW May 45
Ludwig Kuebler- wounded and captured by Yugoslav partisans 45
Wilhelm von Thoma- POW Nov 42 Africa
Walther von Seydlitz-Kurzbach- deserted, POW Jan 43

Political Unrest/Reprisals/ Military Discipline- 6

Gunther Korten- Killed by July plot bombing.
Gunther von Kluge- shot following July plot.
Hans von Sponeck- imprisoned for insubordination
Carl von Stulpnagel- Hanged in connection with July plot Aug 44
Hoepner Erich- sacked later shot.
Ferdinand Schaal- Imprisoned following July plot

Missing/Suicide- 3

Kurt von der Chevallerie - Missing
Walter Model- Suicide April 1945
Friedrich von Chappuis- Suicide Aug 42

Accidents- 3

Karl Eglseer- Killed plane crash
Hans-Valentin Hube- Killed plane crash
Walter Schroth- Killed auto accident October 1944

[morvael]

Yeah, the problem is there are known and famous leaders who survived the war and some less known guys who died during it. Usually the game kills the known and famous as it doesn't differentiate between the two, and that pisses off many players, who expect similar "service life" of the known and famous as IRL. I tried to shift focus to leaders past their end date, so they have greater chance to die. Perhaps the chances are too low now, but whenever I'll make it higher Guderians, Mansteins and Zhukovs will start dying again, and cries on the forum will be much louder than when there are not enough deaths, like now.

[morvael]

As you know air model in this game is prone to "power gaming" and abuse. Therefore air attacks were especially targeted by adjustments and the chance of leader death lowered most aggressively. Currently it's easiest to kill a general by displacing an isolated HQ, while death "by acciddent" which happens during logistics phase ("natural selection" process) has greater chance to trigger for leader past his end date (as defined in generic data).

[Mehring]

Difficult to get right in current game, I guess. There are a few big names got theirs in later years, I expect many promising Russian careers were ended in 41-2. I do hope leader stats and improvement will be revisited for WitE 2. As well as the overpowered starting values for Russian commanders, how many Rokossovskys and Guderians were "removed" by one cause or another before they ever had a chance to shine at corps or higher level?

[PhilThomas]

Worth remembering that Patton was killed in an accident, altho the war was over.

And Richard O'Connor was captured in Libya in '41 and escaped in Italy in '43, which I suspect is really hard to make happen with some sort of random event generator.