Not so far fetched mod for the axis.

[m10bob]

After WWI the Japanese were given the German holdings in the Pacific. What if they returned them to the Germans when they joined the axis powers?
Can you imagine German powers given a greater impetus to build Graf Zeppelin class carriers before the war?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

After WWI the Japanese were given the German holdings in the Pacific. What if they returned them to the Germans when they joined the axis powers?
Can you imagine German powers given a greater impetus to build Graf Zeppelin class carriers before the war?

warspite1

Sounds pretty far fetched. The problems being:

- When do you consider the Japanese as joining the Axis? 1940?
- What about the build time for these large vessels if 1940 is the start date?
- Even with those under-construction such as the Graf Zeppelin, her completion will mean someone - Army or Luftwaffe - going short in the resource department. Would Hitler compromise Lebensraum in the East in this way - for the navy? Plan Z showed where priority lay - and then, once war started, the u-boats took priority.
- You mention Graf Zeppelin-class. There was only one of her class envisaged (plus a second smaller carrier). The problem of course being the need to keep to the Anglo-German Naval Agreement limitations. If the Germans did decide to build more a) they would run into the steel problem mentioned above and b) they would have to be mindful of the treaty. The plan remember was for the Illustrious-class to replace the old British carriers - not to supplement them. Hitler was mindful not to **** off the British in the build up to the war as he felt he could keep her onside.
- Then of course is the not inconsiderable matter of repair and dockyard facilities in these undeveloped Pacific islands.

DOCUP is looking at a mod to include existing German ships in the Pacific (using the pretext that the Germans owned their former mandates and territories in the Pacific) - but this does not assume new ships.

[Big B]

Now warspite1 ...don't be a Buzz Kill [;)] [:D]

Having said that, m10bob's original idea being that the Germans had their Marshall & Gilbert Islands returned to them - If it where a carrot given to Germany by Japan for joining the Axis (say by 1937-1939) ...yeah maybe not at all realistic, for one - why would Japan possibly do that at the time?

BUT... suppose WW1 ended differently? Mainly, suppose Wilson's original proposals of not punishing Germany alone for starting the war (14 Points?) Suppose Wilson had more balls and flatly demanded that the peace to Germany in 1918 would be NOT vindictive Victor's Peace ...and then Wilson even got backing by the Senate?
Well in that case maybe Hitler never even comes to power in 1932...but assuming he does anyway - now Germany keeps her possessions in the Pacific.
So now we have a 'not as quite pissed off Germany', and a Germany with global commitments (Pacific AND African colonies)... and under The 14 Points - a Germany NOT forced to pay for ALL of World War One...so she has a better economic base to build from by 1930....

Given THAT scenario? ... Maybe Germany would have followed Britain, USA, and Japan in building aircraft carriers in the 1930s.

Impossible to say - but I think it enters the realm of "maybe?"


B

[warspite1]

[Splutters - spitting tea all over the place] Gilberts!!!!! I think not sir!!

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Big B

Now warspite1 ...don't be a Buzz Kill [;)] [:D]

Having said that, m10bob's original idea being that the Germans had their Marshall & Gilbert Islands returned to them - If it where a carrot given to Germany by Japan for joining the Axis (say by 1937-1939) ...yeah maybe not at all realistic, for one - why would Japan possibly do that at the time?

BUT... suppose WW1 ended differently? Mainly, suppose Wilson's original proposals of not punishing Germany alone for starting the war (14 Points?) Suppose Wilson had more balls and flatly demanded that the peace to Germany in 1918 would be NOT vindictive Victor's Peace ...and then Wilson even got backing by the Senate?
Well in that case maybe Hitler never even comes to power in 1932...but assuming he does anyway - now Germany keeps her possessions in the Pacific.
So now we have a 'not as quite pissed off Germany', and a Germany with global commitments (Pacific AND African colonies)... and under The 14 Points - a Germany NOT forced to pay for ALL of World War One...so she has a better economic base to build from by 1930....

Given THAT scenario? ... Maybe Germany would have followed Britain, USA, and Japan in building aircraft carriers in the 1930s.

Impossible to say - but I think it enters the realm of "maybe?"


B

warspite1

But...but...but if Germany is not pee'd off, why is she going to war again?

Moreover, the Kaiser (and/or Tirpitz) cheesed the British off with the naval arms race prior to WW1. Are they really going to start that all over again? No Versailles? Then surely the Germans will have to be part of the Washington Treaty? She is not going to get preferential treatment for the size of her navy.

Sorry, I'll take my party-pooper hat off and go quietly sit in the corner.... [:D]

[DOCUP]

Thanks for the shout out, Warspite. No need to sit in the corner be the voice of reason or realism.

I thought about the Graf Zeppelin, but would she or any other German carriers be in the pacific. IMHO the answer a no.

If we go with Big B's thoughts then there might be a german carrier or two. I also agree with Warspite that the Germans would have to be in the WNT.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

[Splutters - spitting tea all over the place] Gilberts!!!!! I think not sir!!

You slay me warspite1 LOL ...wiping the tea off of himself [:D]

Yeah - it enters an area of asking - If this - Then why That?

BUT... Hmm yeah - Germany isn't so P'O'ed... they enter into ALL the Naval Treaties...but they get carriers (1 - 2 - 3?)

The only big problem I see is - If Germany Isn't pissed on by EVERYONE at Versailles... does WW2 even happen???

[jwolf]

ORIGINAL: Big B

The only big problem I see is - If Germany Isn't pissed on by EVERYONE at Versailles... does WW2 even happen???

IMHO this is the elephant in the room. You don't get WW2 in any form we would recognize without both WW1 and a punitive treaty against Germany.

For a more plausible alternate history with Germany active in the Pacific, why not better say that WW1 does not occur? Let's say that cooler heads prevailed in 1914 and the crisis was defused somehow without coming to actual war. Then essentially you get WW1 fought later, during the historical WW2 period, but with (more or less) the original WW1 nations. Now you can say Germany has its Pacific holdings and all the pretty ships you want.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: jwolf

ORIGINAL: Big B

The only big problem I see is - If Germany Isn't pissed on by EVERYONE at Versailles... does WW2 even happen???

IMHO this is the elephant in the room. You don't get WW2 in any form we would recognize without both WW1 and a punitive treaty against Germany.
....

Shoot jwolfe ... now we're into reality, which is bad mojo for all the politico's .... stick to the script - Germany is BAD [:D]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Big B

ORIGINAL: warspite1

[Splutters - spitting tea all over the place] Gilberts!!!!! I think not sir!!

Yeah - it enters an area of asking - If this - Then why That?

warspite1

No I did not mean it in that way - I meant that the Gilberts were never German. They were British so ya boo sucks and hands orf, what?

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

[Splutters - spitting tea all over the place] Gilberts!!!!! I think not sir!!

May I offer you a new cup of tea, My Lord?

Then we might consider what the proper, proportional, response would be if the Germans begun building carriers and militarized the Pacific.

A new ship building plan is a must. Militarizing the Pacific seems wise as well. Should we propose a trade embargo against the militaristic, warmongering, Germans?

What are your thoughts My Lord?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

[Splutters - spitting tea all over the place] Gilberts!!!!! I think not sir!!

May I offer you a new cup of tea, My Lord?

Then we might consider what the proper, proportional, response would be if the Germans begun building carriers and militarized the Pacific.

A new ship building plan is a must. Militarizing the Pacific seems wise as well. Should we propose a trade embargo against the militaristic, warmongering, Germans?

What are your thoughts My Lord?

warspite1

Thank-you - there is nothing like a cup of tea to concentrate the mind, what?

First we would need to understand the background. What has happened? Who is in charge?

E.g. if Hitler is in charge there is unlikely to be a militarising of the the Pacific outside what can be achieved within the confines of the Anglo-German Naval Agreement - and even then, Hitler is going to be anxious not to annoy the British.

Remember he is only interested in Lebensraum and in his mind, he thinks he can keep the British on side. By leaving the British to get on with their Empire, they in return will allow Hitler a free hand in Europe - specifically Eastern Europe and the ultimate reckoning with the Soviet Union - so its vital not to push the British by making the same mistakes that Tirpitz/Kaiser made.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: m10bob

After WWI the Japanese were given the German holdings in the Pacific. What if they returned them to the Germans when they joined the axis powers?
Can you imagine German powers given a greater impetus to build Graf Zeppelin class carriers before the war?

warspite1

Sounds pretty far fetched. The problems being:

- When do you consider the Japanese as joining the Axis? 1940?
- What about the build time for these large vessels if 1940 is the start date?
- Even with those under-construction such as the Graf Zeppelin, her completion will mean someone - Army or Luftwaffe - going short in the resource department. Would Hitler compromise Lebensraum in the East in this way - for the navy? Plan Z showed where priority lay - and then, once war started, the u-boats took priority.
- You mention Graf Zeppelin-class. There was only one of her class envisaged (plus a second smaller carrier). The problem of course being the need to keep to the Anglo-German Naval Agreement limitations. If the Germans did decide to build more a) they would run into the steel problem mentioned above and b) they would have to be mindful of the treaty. The plan remember was for the Illustrious-class to replace the old British carriers - not to supplement them. Hitler was mindful not to **** off the British in the build up to the war as he felt he could keep her onside.
- Then of course is the not inconsiderable matter of repair and dockyard facilities in these undeveloped Pacific islands.

DOCUP is looking at a mod to include existing German ships in the Pacific (using the pretext that the Germans owned their former mandates and territories in the Pacific) - but this does not assume new ships.

The Graf Zeppelin-class aircraft carriers were four German Kriegsmarine aircraft carriers planned in the mid-1930s by Grand Admiral Erich Raeder as part of the Plan Z rearmament program after Germany and Great Britain signed the Anglo-German Naval Agreement. They were planned after a thorough study of Japanese carrier designs; nevertheless, German naval architects ran into difficulties due to lack of experience in building such vessels, the situational realities of carrier operations in the North Sea and the lack of overall clarity in the ships' mission objectives. This lack of clarity led to features either eliminated from or not included in American and Japanese carrier designs. These included a complement of cruiser-type guns for commerce raiding and defense against British cruisers. American and Japanese carriers, designed along the lines of task-force defense, used supporting cruisers for surface firepower, which allowed flight operations to continue without disruption and kept carriers out of undue risk of damage or sinking from surface action.

A combination of political infighting between the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe, disputes within the ranks of the Kriegsmarine itself and Adolf Hitler's waning interest all conspired against the carriers. A shortage of workers and materials slowed construction still further and, in 1939, Raeder reduced the number of ships from four to two. Even so, the Luftwaffe trained its first unit of pilots for carrier service and readied it for flight operations. With the advent of World War II, priorities shifted to U-boat construction; one carrier, Flugzeugträger B, was broken up on the slipway while work on the other, Flugzeugträger A (christened Graf Zeppelin) was continued tentatively but suspended in 1940. The air unit scheduled for her was disbanded at that time.

The role of aircraft in the Battle of Taranto, the pursuit of the German battleship Bismarck, the attack on Pearl Harbor and the Battle of Midway demonstrated conclusively the usefulness of aircraft carriers in modern naval warfare. With Hitler's authorization, work resumed on the remaining carrier. Progress was again delayed, this time by the demand for newer planes specifically designed for carrier use and the need for modernizing the ship in light of wartime developments. Hitler's disenchantment with the performance of the Kriegsmarine's surface units led to a final stoppage of work. The ship was captured by the Soviet Union at the end of the war and sunk as a target ship in 1947.

(This of course is a copy paste from Wikipedia..a source many like to bash, but I also own a pamphlet dad brought back from the war which was printed by the German Navy which describes their navy, and the ship is described as an intended class, as Wikipedia claims.)

Besides, its' a "what if"[;)]

[warspite1]

You are correct in that there was a second ship (and it is believed she was laid down - although even Conways do not know when) and these two would provide 35% of the Royal Navy carrier tonnage.

Sure its a "what-if" and entirely up to you what you are happy with - I was just trying to inject some background for consideration. After all, a "what-if" is one thing - complete fantasy is something else! [;)]

Plan Z was a total pipe-dream.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

You are correct in that there was a second ship (and it is believed she was laid down - although even Conways do not know when) and these two would provide 35% of the Royal Navy carrier tonnage.

Sure its a "what-if" and entirely up to you what you are happy with - I was just trying to inject some background for consideration. After all, a "what-if" is one thing - complete fantasy is something else! [;)]

Plan Z was a total pipe-dream.

[btd64]

ORIGINAL: Big B

ORIGINAL: warspite1

[Splutters - spitting tea all over the place] Gilberts!!!!! I think not sir!!

You slay me warspite1 LOL ...wiping the tea off of himself [:D]

Yeah - it enters an area of asking - If this - Then why That?

BUT... Hmm yeah - Germany isn't so P'O'ed... they enter into ALL the Naval Treaties...but they get carriers (1 - 2 - 3?)

The only big problem I see is - If Germany Isn't pissed on by EVERYONE at Versailles... does WW2 even happen???

Yes. But Japan Starts it for the same historical reasons. Resources. I love this stuff....GP

[Skyros]

If you are going to turn over Truk, Palau and Kwajalien to the Germans, where will the IJN base its fleet?

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Skyros

If you are going to turn over Truk, Palau and Kwajalien to the Germans, where will the IJN base its fleet?

Do you mean the short time after December 7th and the time they capture Manila, Guam, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc?

[Skyros]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: Skyros

If you are going to turn over Truk, Palau and Kwajalien to the Germans, where will the IJN base its fleet?

Do you mean the short time after December 7th and the time they capture Manila, Guam, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc?

I would think you would need to build up other island chains in Japanese control to protect the pacific flank. The mandates formed a shield for the Japanese empire that has now been rolled back almost to Japan itself. The German forces occupying those islands would be small compared to what the Japanese had at Bablethup, Kwajalein and Truk.