Air Defense LOS to helicopters

[Jagger2002]

Is the LOS from a air defense unit accurate in determining LOS to helicopters? I assume helicopters are at higher altitude than regular ground troops and air defense units should be able to spot helicopters in locations which would be blocked to regular ground troops. Is it possible to see and hit helicopters with AD beyond the LOS revealed by the LOS tool.

Also I am curious if the AI gets any to hit bonuses? I played one scenario both sides and when on offense, I lost 19 helicopters. When on defense, I shot down 4 helicopters. In addition, the AI was moving their helicopters directly into and over towns full of my troops and AD units almost with impunity. I could never do that. My helicopters were getting shot down by M-1 fire from 4-5 hexes away! Either I am really doing something wrong against the AI both with and against helicopters or the AI has some sort of advantage or really bad luck.

I don't mind the AI having some advantages for an interesting game but I am wondering if my tactics are really that bad when it comes to Air Defense and attack with helicopters.

[CapnDarwin]

No AI cheats. The same code does their LOS and Attacks and everything thing else for that matter. What can be affecting you is some luck, but more likely readiness of force, cover, and situation.

The LOS tool should be showing correct LOS from a unit.

[Jagger2002]

It is good to hear the AI is playing with the same rules as me but disappointing to realize how badly I am handling air defense and using helicopters. I will have to spend some more time focusing on the air war.

[Jagger2002]

The LOS tool should be showing correct LOS from a unit.

I did some tests this afternoon. Yes, the LOS tool is accurate when showing LOS from ground unit to ground unit. It does not appear accurate when plotting LOS from air defense unit to helicopter or helicopter to ground unit. I am seeing Air Defense units hitting helicopters and helicopters hitting ground units in which the LOS tool does not show a LOS from firing unit to tgt. I am guessing the game engine is plotting helicopter locations at a higher elevation than ground elevation while the LOS tool is using ground elevation only in plotting LOS. So the LOS tool is not showing lines of sight related to helicopters in air. So I am now eyeballing air LOS.

Is the helicopter assumed to be one elevation level higher than the ground level? So helicopter would be at elevation 3 when located over a ground elevation of 2?

[jack54]

There is also an option in the view menu to "show enemies spotted by this unit"...
I usually forget to use it but that might help. I think it's (control y) but I'm not sure; anyway it's in the unit view menu.

[CapnDarwin]

Jagger2002,

Looking at the game I'm not seeing any issue with LOS from the helos. They are spotting at their indicated elevation of ground + 1. Ground units will only show los to relative ground, but can spot helos that sit higher when they are in range. No bug here, but we need to rethink AD los on our end to somehow show LOS versus altitude. I'll bring this up on our Monday night Dev call and see if we can at least get his in the books for a 2.1 feature.

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: Jagger2002
My helicopters were getting shot down by M-1 fire from 4-5 hexes away!

I don't know about tanks shooting down my helos, but I have lost a few to Soviet ADA units more than 4-5 hexes away, more like 4-5km. Which I mentioned before and questioned the priority of ADA units wasting missile shots on helos. Granted they were probably the only spotted enemy units at the time but still.

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin
No bug here, but we need to rethink AD los on our end to somehow show LOS versus altitude. I'll bring this up on our Monday night Dev call and see if we can at least get his in the books for a 2.1 feature.

Yeah, and for orders consider high vs low altitude for helos. There should be a provision for pop up to higher altitude to spot/engage targets and then dropping back down to nap-of-the-earth, which should block LOS at extended ranges. So spotting is one piece of this issue, and then priority to engage vs range. If there are in fact tanks taking shots at 4-5 hexes then that's questionable.

I also think you need to reconsider the limited agility of the 1980's Hinds, when they should be making gun runs on a target and are more vulnerable to being targeted? It's all complicated, I understand, based on the 500m hexes and timeframes and such. But certainly something to discuss for 2.1 features.

[CapnDarwin]

Helos already get a benefit from being considered to travel NOE on the map and to pop up to spot and shoot. We will be looking at adding SOPs that will allow you to govern the risk profile of the helo, trade protection versus spit/shoot.

With the scope of the game engine, dictating a style of attack get a bit tough, but I will see what we can do. Maybe a unit special for hover challenged with some penalties to shooting and lower protection in shoot/spot. Food for thought. [8D]

[jack54]

The HPS/Tiller games do something interesting...if a chopper fires several times from the same hex it gets a 'hover' penalty... it remains in hover until it moves a certain number of hexes away.

Just a thought.

[CapnDarwin]

I think we have that penalty now in getting shot down if you sit still too long. Most dedicate attack helos can transition rapidly from hover to movement (up, down or otherwise). In this case we are talking about the need for a Hind to be moving somewhat to counter a poor hovering stability to fire. We will need to investigate the issue going into 2.1 to see if in game terms and scope this is an issue for helos in a 500m box.

[Jagger2002]

It feels like a new game with the patch. Artillery seems toned down a bit and helicopters appear less effective except when they catch troops in the open.

Although it seems air defense units continue to get pounded immediately by artillery even though they are not getting hit as hard. But I wonder if air defense units were that easy to locate. I am no expert in the area but apparently air defense radars use a very narrow, cross sectional beam that makes them difficult to locate. Any experts out there with info on locating air defense radars while they are scanning with their radar? I am just wondering if it should be harder to locate air defense units? If so, that would increase their survivability/readiness and make the airspace a little more dangerous for helicopters. Although I think it is fairly dangerous now for helicopters.

[EisenHammer]

In the three games that I played in the last few days Hinds and Cobra were getting shot down all time and were mostly useless.

[Jagger2002]

You may already know this but just in case, here are 3 tactics that seem to help quite a bit with helicopter surviveability:

1. Use terrain to keep out of the line of sight of Air Defense Units.
2. When you do attack with helicopters, attack from terrain giving defensive benefits and preferably out of LOS of Air Defense units.
3. Use any and all means to destroy Air Defense units. Often it is best to wait until AD units are located, weakened and/or destroyed before commiting helicopters.

But now I am wondering if Air Defense units are too easy to locate when using their radar.

[ivanov]

Have there been any changes to the helicopters in 2.09? There is no info about that in the What's New Pdf...

[ivanov]

ORIGINAL: katukov

Have there been any changes to the helicopters in 2.09? There is no info about that in the What's New Pdf...

Anybody?

During my last turn of a PBEM game, my well placed Vulcan shot down 7 Hinds. Is it a coincidence? True enough it was well placed and rested in a urban terrain with 90% cover, while the Hinds were performing a deep raid, but I've never seen the AD so effective.

[Jagger2002]

Anybody?

I haven't noticed. What I have noticed is combat results, in general, seem less deadly than pre-patch, including helicopters attacking. But since the patch came out, I haven't tried a scenario with mass helicopters which might show a new particular vulnerability to AD.

[ivanov]

ORIGINAL: Jagger2002

Anybody?

I haven't noticed. What I have noticed is combat results, in general, seem less deadly than pre-patch, including helicopters attacking. But since the patch came out, I haven't tried a scenario with mass helicopters which might show a new particular vulnerability to AD.

Well I think that in my case, the fact that the helos were moving over a flat terrain, played a big role in the AD effectiveness.

[Jagger2002]

Well I think that in my case, the fact that the helos were moving over a flat terrain, played a big role in the AD effectiveness.

Yes, that helps a lot. [;)] They are a lot harder to kill when they are dodging behind trees or buildings obstructing LOS. Also I wonder if low defender readiness makes them easier to kill. I suspect they might and often we can't tell the readiness of targets.

A good scenario to test AD and helicopter effectiveness is Dawn's Early Light. Lots of helicopters and lots of AD. Although the US AD units aren't particularly great. Although it is best to test in a PBEM if you want a good result. So if you have the time for a PBEM and want to check it out, I am up for a PBEM. I am still a new player with Red Storm but I think I have AD and helicopter use down fairly well. I would play either side. If you want to try it out PBEM, drop my a private message and we can give it a shot. We will find out if helicopters are easier to knock down or not.

[Lowlaner2012]

Sounds like helos are no longer the deathstars of the battlefield and rightly so, they should only be used at a decent range and from behind cover(trees, hills etc) just like real life, I remember one of the OT guys saying that Helos were not flying tanks and should not be used like one, Jagger I will give you a game by pbem of dawns early light, or another way to test faster would be by hotseat against yourself....I may do an hours testing by hotseat tonight and post some results and screens...

[Jagger2002]

PM on the way!