Bob Flemin' Fall Gelb AARse.....

[etsadler]

Regarding the lack of divisions...are you aware that you can break down corps into divisions as part of set-up?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: RickInVA

Regarding the lack of divisions...are you aware that you can break down corps into divisions as part of set-up?

warspite1

No I did not know that. RAC says this is done in the Production Step.

[Jagdtiger14]

I now know you cant write a long edit, or you lose it.

Anyway, Rick...I know you can, and I dedicated an INF or MOT to do that. I asked Warspite if there were any available div's, but got a report back that there were none until next turn. As I recall from my face to face board games we always were able to breakdown into div's.

[Jagdtiger14]

Any limitation on corp breakdown into divisions could be a MWiF thing, I don't know. In the board game we have the freedom to do this.

[warspite1]

Can either of you tell me how to do this please? I am in the set-up for Germany and cannot see anything obvious. I have searched breakdown and unlimited in RAC too. Many thanks.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Warspite: I have no problem trying to deal with the stated German strategy in Poland...that is not strange at all. The question is how with the limited resources the Poles have. I still prefer the normal set up as it inflict the greatest chance of inflicting casualties on the Germans. The strange thing was why the HQ was way out there?

My German move: Combined (you get one land attack, one naval move, six land moves and I think 3 air?). The naval move would be one CL with the 1-3 INF div into the 4 box (acceptable losses if the CW/French find it on the surprise impulse). One land move would be the 6-4 INF in Prussia moved to the hex between Warsaw and Brest. This ZOC's the HQ and prevents it from being where it should be, and exposes it to elimination the following impulse. With the bad weather roll, it wouldn't be able to make it far in the next Allied impulse either.

warspite1

What is a "normal set-up"? Surely this is not up to you? You are playing the Germans and want to use your preferred Plan Gelb. You do not get to choose where the Poles go.

You said the HQ placed where it was was strange and there was a risk it would not get back to Warsaw. No - the placement was in response to where the Germans had set-up, there is no risk of getting back to Warsaw and it was placed where it was specifically to ensure it could not be ground struck.

Edit: Re the Germans - this is impulse 1?

[Orm]

I just checked how to break down during set up and then I get online and see the question. [:D]

After placing a unit on the map you can right click on a unit (that has the corresponding divisions available in the force pool) in order to break it down. During set up this can not be a infantry corps since Germany has no infantry divisions available.

[warspite1]

So the MECH, the MTN and the MOT can be broken down, but nothing else i.e not INF and not ARM.

Irritating that is not in the rules - unless I missed it (but as I say I searched breakdowns and divisions)....

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So the MECH, the MTN and the MOT can be broken down, but nothing else i.e not INF and not ARM.

Irritating that is not in the rules - unless I missed it (but as I say I searched breakdowns and divisions)....

The WIF rules for this is in the Scenarios Booklet. No idea where the MWIF rules for this are.

[warspite1]

Breakdown at start of the game.

I cannot see that this is mentioned in the rules. There is mention in RAC of breaking down during the Production Step and there is also reference, in the Players Manual, of "Breakdown Phase" but cannot see that defined.

I may well have missed it, but either way, here's another thing I've learnt from this thread [:)]

[Jagdtiger14]

Warspite: See post #40 above for part one. Continued: The one attack would be vs the 4-4. Move the 5-3 (second German land move) into position to do this. This attack would be 23-4 or 5.75-1 (without air or HQ support...air is ok to use here if these odds are not comfortable) which would be a +11 with a 50% chance for a +12 on the 2d10. With an average roll of 11 that would be a 22(23).

About the 1d10...no one in the three WiFcon's I've been to played with it, and our face to face group has never played with it. I don't know why its in MWiF. I highly recommend you make the move to 2d10.

Fall Gelb is not reliant at all on what happens in the North Sea. German activity in the North Sea is about the possibility of taking Rotterdam easy and cheap (and timely). As I recall, you had the worst die roll and still only lost 1 corp. I'm not sure what you mean by 2 corps lost?

I don't know much about the 1d10...so maybe that's why you say you want to know how the Germans can take Rotterdam? I suppose I could agree with you even on the 2d10 if I manually determined the die rolls. On average there is no problem at all for the Germans to take it, what is vexing is the extra impulse they have to dedicate themselves to do it, and possibly much more time depending on the weather/end of turn rolls. Defensive SB is awesome, but can only double the factors max. I'm glad you are playing with that option.

[warspite1]

I tried 2d10 in my first AAR and just found it too brutal.

If you attack on the Assault Table (with your set up all attacks in Poland will be defenders choice) at 5:1 no modifiers then you run the risk of losing two units. Without divisions to take the loss that is two corps.

Now it looks like you can breakdown the MTN or MOT (or MECH) into divisions at the start of the game, so could use these in the set-up and still have two infantry divisions for the attack on Rotterdam.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Fall Gelb is not reliant at all on what happens in the North Sea. German activity in the North Sea is about the possibility of taking Rotterdam easy and cheap (and timely).

warspite1

Understood and the whole thing has now finally become clear to me (it takes time I'm afraid).

The Germans cannot stop the Commonwealth taking Rotterdam without risking a portion of the fleet right at the outset of the game. I'm not sure (with my luck at sea!) if I would have the cojones to do this. That just makes the CW job easier for the rest of the game.

What I have also learnt is, as the Allied player, NEVER have less than 3 TRS in the UK at the start. You are right, if the CW lands the HQ in Holland - and it were to get destroyed - that would compromise the French defence (unless Wavell is brought in - and that in turn means that Italy may be more aggressive).

Interesting stuff!

[Jagdtiger14]

"normal set up" according to our face to face group...sorry about that. I understand everyone has their own method, the set up I recommend has become standard for our group over the years. I'm actually looking at this as playing both sides. I highly recommend the strongest possible CW commitment to France including pulling the HQ out of Egypt...which has already met with some resistance.

Yes, I was talking about impulse 1 S/O'39. If you look at the map, the 6-4 INF moved from Prussia into the hex between Warsaw and Brest puts a ZOC on the Polish HQ. Where do you move the HQ next with its two movement points?

I'm glad to see there is breakdown for div's. The other thing you can do is look at the force pool and see what div's are in it...these will be available. I thought an INF corp broke down into an INF div and a MOT div...but I think both INF div are out there already...maybe the 2 pt INF div comes in later. MOT can breakdown into two MOT div's?

[Jagdtiger14]

Well, the "portion of the fleet" would be one(or two if the first fails) CL's. Not really a big deal. I also recommend you do not play with light cruisers...it is highly pro-allied. Does not effect Fall Gelb, but the over all game. So without CL's, you would be risking Hipper/Blucher.

[warspite1]

Well yes it could but then what about taking Gdynia? You cannot use the corps west of Poznan - You'll have the Polish threatening Berlin and Breslau!

You also run the risk of that 6-4 INF being put out of supply and ground struck.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Well, the "portion of the fleet" would be one(or two if the first fails) CL's. Not really a big deal. I also recommend you do not play with light cruisers...it is highly pro-allied. Does not effect Fall Gelb, but the over all game. So without CL's, you would be risking Hipper/Blucher.

warspite1

I thought you wanted more ships (see your post 31). Without the shore bombardment how do you guarantee the amphibious invasion works?

[Jagdtiger14]

Forget about taking Gdynia if you do a combined on impulse 1. In my example of land moves I only used two, so one other move could be screening the div. The corp west of Poznan would stay put the first impulse. The 6-4 I'm talking about is in Prussia...and yes, it will be out of supply for the time being, and if the Pols GS it, the CW risks losing a pilot for a 30% chance of success. The HQ has the risk of being attacked outside a city. I'm not sure I would take all these risks on the Polish side. As the CW...give me the pilots to fight the real war in France, use the HQ to defend Lodz/Warsaw.

You play with fractionals right? I wouldn't know anything about the brutality of the 2d10[8|] On the 2d10 you risk losing three if you roll a modified 14...

[Jagdtiger14]

SB on Rotterdam vs the notional? Not necessary, ground units adjacent to Rotterdam can be used.

At that post I was looking to see what was possible to get out there to attack the CW fleet in storm weather...understanding CL's were in use.

[warspite1]

So if you don't take Gdynia you run the risk of the CW doing a combined. It gets the Home Fleet + TRS to sea.

It then moves the Polish destroyer into the Baltic threatening 3 resources from Sweden.

With the German set-up, yes I am prepared to use Polish aircraft in Poland to make life difficult. I can always change my mind with the bomber (4-range to Lithuania from Warsaw). I do not know if Poland can use Eastern Poland (once conquered by the Soviets for that purpose).

There is no point in losing Poland cheaply so if that was the set-up, on reflection I would just put the HQ in Warsaw and trust that the 2-strength bombers miss OR that they attack the resource hex instead.