Chinese planes

[jmalter]

thanks for this thread - one of my AVG groups was still flying 17 H81s when it withdrew, I thought those airframes were gone forever, but now I see them available in the Chinese Fighter upgrade path, yum.

My prob w/ the Chinese airforce isn't so much the abysmal pilot replacement rate, but the supply cost of training pilots. I bought out all the bombers to CATF, & they are happily training at 100% in Delhi. But all the fighters are at 50% training in Chengtu & Kienko, barring 1 group of Lancers at 50% CAP in Chungking.

Those 17 H81s are a full group's worth, available NOW! while more Lancers & Vanguards are built into the pools.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

ORIGINAL: Malagant

Morning Air attack on 36th Chinese Corps, at 87,45 , near Chengchow

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 40,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 21

Allied aircraft
I-15-III x 17
Hawk 75M x 1

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 6 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
I-15-III: 1 destroyed

Who needs P40s?!

[X(]I would check the Oscar squadron's pilot skill/ exp and leader qualities ASAP

Oxygen deficiency!!

or Fog of War.

[wdolson]

I notice the raid was coming in at 40,000 feet and it looks like the attack was on a ground unit. The planes were probably laden with bombs and it's pretty weird they were trying to do ground attack at 40,000 feet. I didn't know the Oscar could climb that high.

I have no idea how the I-15s managed to intercept at that altitude.

Bill

[obvert]

The Chinese air force is intriguing. There are a lot of groups, but not many planes.

In the beginning the AVG is the only air unit for me that fights in China. The rest I try to get to India ASAP so they can train, fill out, and generally get out of the way. Using the bombers in China goes back to the Bull's note above; there are better using for supply in China! I do use them very rarely if I need to slow an advance by the IJA, but that's about it.

Later though the Chinese get some airframes that become really useful, not necessarily because they're great planes, but because if you use only one or two groups of them, you can use there average capabilities and one plus for the Allies early; range. Lancers and Vanguards especially offer great range, and the Hawks and P-40B aren't too bad either. The Lancers I find pretty tough, and can even sweep against Ki-43 and A6M early. Usually though they're best use is LR CAP once the Japanese feel like there is no resistance and stop using sweeps/escorts for their millruns in China. This is also a great way to bolster experience and air skills and get those semi-trained Chinese pilots to more than acceptable levels.

Eventually in late 43 the P-40E comes at a regular pace and very late the P-51 becomes available, so you want to have some good pilots to use.

The bombers function as decent ASW and search platforms from India and Burma, and you can use the plentiful groups to train up pilots slowly to prepare for the days when you'll eventually get something actually useful as a strike platform, the B-25. Even the A-29 can be used in a pinch though in 42-43 if the Japanese have also stopped CAPing their rear bases due to the LR capability of these airframes.

To use the Chinese air force you have to get in and get out quickly, and you probably only have 2-3 airbases capable of flying missions by the time they're actually effective. After jumping some Sallys it's usually advisable to fly the lot back to Ledo so that when the 200 IJA 2Es respond by pummeling your airbases they don't get stuck and you don't lose all of those airframes on a base with no rail.

[wdolson]

A lot depends on your opponent. If you're playing the AI and want to push it, you can use the Chinese air force to defend your bases in Korea as the RAF and USAAF attack Japan. When the Allies capture bases in Korea, the Japanese do attack them aggressively from the air.

Getting to Korea probably isn't possible against a competent human opponent though.

Bill

[pelthunter]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The H81-A3 was the export version of the P-40B, moving from one to the other is mostly a lateral move.

The P-40E has the 6X .50 calibers and armor. The P-40B is a bit more nimble because it is lighter, but it is more fragile in a fight. As an aside, I've never had Boyington as my top ace. Most of the time he's one of the first casualties.



Bill

Well, as somebody already pointed out, idea was to release planes to Chinese use.

Also, is there some hidden "fragility" factor, as the durability of B and E is the same and B has better maneuverability?

(I am running no withdrawals campaing)

[pelthunter]

Personally I never use 100 % training, I usually settle for 40 %.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: pelthunter

Btw, My Boyington, 549 missions, 12 kills.

Top pilot being PO Norton, G., No 67 RAF, with 31 kills.

I am doing it wrongo.

Against the AI putting the AVG in Rangoon for a fight to establish air superiority to cover bringing in massive convoys for supply for China will guarantee the AVG and Pappy will get many early war kills against Oscars and Nates.

When the AVG withdraws I transfer all the pilots to TRACOM and then Pappy is the first to be transferred to another front line squadron where the air battle is the thickest to ensure he gets the best chance to shine.

I tend to manipulate events in his favor to facilitate his rise to kill leader.

[HansBolter]

I use 80% to maximize training while keeping fatigue under control.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The H81-A3 was the export version of the P-40B, moving from one to the other is mostly a lateral move.

The P-40E has the 6X .50 calibers and armor. The P-40B is a bit more nimble because it is lighter, but it is more fragile in a fight. As an aside, I've never had Boyington as my top ace. Most of the time he's one of the first casualties.

Hans, are you playing with withdraw off? The AVG goes away before the P-38E is really available if it's on. When the AVG units withdraw, all those good pilots go into the pools and can be distributed to other squadrons. The 23rd FG is loaded with top talent when it arrives. In the real world the 23rd was formed when the AVG was disbanded and a number of the pilots transferred, though they all had options not to. Boyington famously went back to the Marines.

Bill

I've been known to scrap a game when Pappy goes down!

See a few post above for an explanation of how I handle the AVG pilots.

[dr.hal]

Bill, good point about the range of the B (with no drop-tanks) as that needs forethought to handle. Another advantage of the E over the B is that fact that it has a hard point that can carry a 500 pound bomb. I use them in the Philippines to great effect against unguarded Jap merchants that think they can roam Philippine waters freely (boy do they get a surprise!). But this underscores the need to keep the Bs in the AVG as the use of counter ship bombing there is limited. Hal

[wegman58]

I take it Pappy stays in the Army Air Forces in the game?

Doing my first GC against the AI and the AVG got lots of kills in an ill-fated attempt to defend Rangoon. But my top pilots are ANZACs. Machine has not been terribly aggressive and I have a division and LOTS of support at Port Moresby with lots of supply. Every few weeks I get two carrier raids at Moresby which normally goes worse for the IJN than the defenders. One RAAF and one RNZAF squadron have been there for a LONG time and both nations have pilots with 30+ kills in January 1943. Started with two P40E squadrons that went to Brisbane to replane (P40K and P-38), they tended to miss the fireworks during the refit. And two P-39 that have lots of aces as well.

[jwolf]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I notice the raid was coming in at 40,000 feet and it looks like the attack was on a ground unit. The planes were probably laden with bombs and it's pretty weird they were trying to do ground attack at 40,000 feet. I didn't know the Oscar could climb that high.

I have no idea how the I-15s managed to intercept at that altitude.

Bill

The 40K figure was presumably distorted by FOW and/or inexperience with the equipment. The actual raid was at an altitude somewhere in the mid to high 30s, about equal to whatever is the ceiling for an Oscar. The CAP, on the other hand, was much lower, 10K as I recall, configured to defend against bombers. My opponent speculated that the huge altitude disparity may have brought about some weird results. I could believe that. Or maybe I just got really lucky with some incredible dice rolls. Either way it's a result that is not likely to be repeated.

[Capt Hornblower]

Most of you guys seem to be playing with Player Defined Upgrades ON. The CAF has it much harder if you play with PDU OFF.

[crsutton]

My two campaigns Boyington went down in the first days of the war. He had eight kills in three combats in the last though. I have two Chinese pilots with 10 kills each but at 11/42 no longer have any planes for them to fly. I don't sent the AVG planes to China. Against a human opponent they are just cannon fodder vs the experienced Japanese pilots and better used by the Allied air force in Burma and India. I let the Chinese get by on the old planes that they have and then rebuild the squadrons later in the war when China is hopefully back in the fight. The lancer is actually a pretty good fighter while it lasts. The Chinese eventually get a small flow of Mustangs in 1945.

[pelthunter]

If I recall correctly, in his book American Experience in China Stillwell criticized US businessmen who sold Kai-Shek's regime old piece of crap machines and write-offs as "modern combat aircraft", and of course for a hefty fee.


Oh and it was not about moving AVG groups into China, keep groups in Rangoon and about but change to P-40B and H8Is will be returned to the Chinese replacement pool.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: wegman58

I take it Pappy stays in the Army Air Forces in the game?

Doing my first GC against the AI and the AVG got lots of kills in an ill-fated attempt to defend Rangoon. But my top pilots are ANZACs. Machine has not been terribly aggressive and I have a division and LOTS of support at Port Moresby with lots of supply. Every few weeks I get two carrier raids at Moresby which normally goes worse for the IJN than the defenders. One RAAF and one RNZAF squadron have been there for a LONG time and both nations have pilots with 30+ kills in January 1943. Started with two P40E squadrons that went to Brisbane to replane (P40K and P-38), they tended to miss the fireworks during the refit. And two P-39 that have lots of aces as well.

Yes he is stuck in the army for the duration. No way to transfer him to the marines.

Port Morseby is pretty easy to hold against the AI. Almost impossible against a thinking opponent though.