GG's War in East / West

[SuluSea]

Count me in the group disappointed with WITW as well.

Maybe it isn't my cup of tea but I just haven't been able to stay with it long enough to get anything remotely close to a return on the entertainment dollar invested. WITE IMO is fantastic and I've gotten my monies worth but nothing comes close to the return for WITP-AE.

[claystone_MatrixForum]

I think you will have more fun with a "counter & Hex" base wargame boardgame that you can also play on "Vassal" against other players.

I have both games and i don't find them complex, but more dumb down from Witp/ae which for me is taking away from the detail of the game itself.

[IronWarrior]

ORIGINAL: obvert

I read an older interview (2003) with Gary Grigsby and Joel Billings a while back and noticed a really interesting bit about the complexity of WITP. To bad they came to this conclusion because it seems the decisions made to reduce complexity have also made the games more predictable and less playable. I'd rather have 6 months of complex WITP-AE style gaming just doing one small piece of the campaign (like D-Day) than two months of abstraction for several years of the war that I can't really connect to in WITW.

[font="Trebuchet MS"]GG: Well, more powerful computers allow you to put a lot more features into a game. By the same token a lot more are expected of you by the people buying the games. Mostly I think they're expecting more visuals, more bells and whistles, animations and whatnot. With Uncommon Valor and especially with War in the Pacific I'm realizing that these things are hitting a level of complexity that…

JB: …human people aren't supposed to deal with.

GG: I can't keep it in my head anymore. That's it. I hit the wall. I am never ever, ever, ever doing a game like that again.[/font]

Unfortunate. It's the combination of real complexity and the ability to see detail (in the replays, info screens and reports) that make this such an enjoyable and long lasting title. I don't believe humans "aren't supposed to deal with" this level of complexity. I think we're fascinated by it because we can't ever quite get a handle on it. We'll never know it all, it'll never turn out the same no matter how many times we play it and that is fun.

Wow... that is incredibly depressing. Explains why I couldn't really get into WitE and WitW as much as I did WitP though. Really strange to see him feel that way about the best game ever made! Reminds me of an interview I saw recently of the dev from Arcen (AI War, Last Federation) who was asked what games he likes- ended up being these really mainstream casual games and not what I expected at all.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: IronWarrior

ORIGINAL: obvert

I read an older interview (2003) with Gary Grigsby and Joel Billings a while back and noticed a really interesting bit about the complexity of WITP. To bad they came to this conclusion because it seems the decisions made to reduce complexity have also made the games more predictable and less playable. I'd rather have 6 months of complex WITP-AE style gaming just doing one small piece of the campaign (like D-Day) than two months of abstraction for several years of the war that I can't really connect to in WITW.

[font="Trebuchet MS"]GG: Well, more powerful computers allow you to put a lot more features into a game. By the same token a lot more are expected of you by the people buying the games. Mostly I think they're expecting more visuals, more bells and whistles, animations and whatnot. With Uncommon Valor and especially with War in the Pacific I'm realizing that these things are hitting a level of complexity that…

JB: …human people aren't supposed to deal with.

GG: I can't keep it in my head anymore. That's it. I hit the wall. I am never ever, ever, ever doing a game like that again.[/font]

Unfortunate. It's the combination of real complexity and the ability to see detail (in the replays, info screens and reports) that make this such an enjoyable and long lasting title. I don't believe humans "aren't supposed to deal with" this level of complexity. I think we're fascinated by it because we can't ever quite get a handle on it. We'll never know it all, it'll never turn out the same no matter how many times we play it and that is fun.

Wow... that is incredibly depressing. Explains why I couldn't really get into WitE and WitW as much as I did WitP though. Really strange to see him feel that way about the best game ever made! Reminds me of an interview I saw recently of the dev from Arcen (AI War, Last Federation) who was asked what games he likes- ended up being these really mainstream casual games and not what I expected at all.

I imagine as a designer you want to have it all accessible, understandable, to be able to get everything that's going on. The beauty of WITP and AE is that not even the devs completely get it all, as this points out. To me that is the most critical part of the success of this game. Each player has to invest, learn, make it personal and develop their own relationship to the game. You own it after you've played through a campaign or two, and the satisfaction just stays there since you still have a lot to learn and someone to play who is going through exactly the same things in a different way.

PS - Hello from a fellow Oregonian! [:)]

[Numdydar]

Oregon bah. Oregon is just the part of Washington we did not want [:D]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Oregon bah. Oregon is just the part of Washington we did not want [:D]

Hold on a minute! Wasn't it the Oregon Territory? [:)]

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Oregon bah. Oregon is just the part of Washington we did not want [:D]

ORIGINAL: obvert
Hold on a minute! Wasn't it the Oregon Territory? [:)]

Let's see, Oregon Territory first, Washington Territory later...

Oregon statehood first, Washington becomes a state with a bunch of other states later.

Today Washington has the bigger population and bigger economy, but it wasn't always that way. I do live in Washington, but I can see Oregon from my house. [:D]

Back to the original topic, I think one of the draws of AE is you keep learning new things. I think most of the people who do like this game are the sort of people who start getting bored the moment they master anything. You can become pretty skilled at this game, but it's impossible to master.

Bill

[IronWarrior]

ORIGINAL: obvert

I imagine as a designer you want to have it all accessible, understandable, to be able to get everything that's going on. The beauty of WITP and AE is that not even the devs completely get it all, as this points out. To me that is the most critical part of the success of this game. Each player has to invest, learn, make it personal and develop their own relationship to the game. You own it after you've played through a campaign or two, and the satisfaction just stays there since you still have a lot to learn and someone to play who is going through exactly the same things in a different way.

PS - Hello from a fellow Oregonian! [:)]

Yes, very true... considering the sort of games he makes though, was odd to hear I guess heh.

Cheers! Seems we in the Pac NW have good taste in games.
(Also my mother was originally from Surrey- more stuff I can relate with you about. I should hit you up sometime for a game )

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Today Washington has the bigger population and bigger economy, but it wasn't always that way. I do live in Washington, but I can see Oregon from my house. [:D]

Sounds like my grandma's place on McLoughlin Blvd in Vancouver. Man I loved that view. Used to sit there and endlessly watch the PDX flightpath on weekend afternoons.

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Back to the original topic, I think one of the draws of AE is you keep learning new things. I think most of the people who do like this game are the sort of people who start getting bored the moment they master anything.

Bill

Interesting observation, and true in my case...

[Dobey455]

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay

seems to me I'll be far more happier with my current bag of WITP games at the moment...However, a chance for micromanaging the Reich industry to victory in the East tickles me intellectually...

In WITE the Russians get control of production, not the Germans.