Barbarossa

[bo]

Hi everyone:

Couple of questions and opinions on Barbarossa if you care to [;)]

As a beta tester for some 3 or 4 years, I really never played Barbarossa in earnest, I was always testing Guadalcanal and Fascist Tide and with some of the problems never got very deep into those scenarios either.

I just started to really delve into Barbarossa in the past 2 weeks, now I know my name is not Field Marshall von Rundstedt, but I do not feel I can win Barbarossa as the Germans using the fast start scenario that came with the game.

There always seems to be a lack of German units as I move deeper and deeper into Russia. It takes a lot of German units to hopefully break river lines at the cost of becoming disorganized with a soso die roll.

The weather is killing me when it rains, now I have a beta tool that can adjust the weather but I am reluctant to use it because I want to play the game as you people do with the same limitations you have, and when it rains for a whole turn that can be devastating.

Also at the end of a turn and new units are being built it seems to favor the Russians, meaning I can build a lot more Russian infantry in 2 moves and get them set up on another river line when they come in later than I can could ever hope to do with new German units who start in Germany and outside of railing them into Russia and become disorganized for a whole turn.

The German infantry that can be built in 2 turns and be brought into the game and do some good are way to slow to even matter. What do you players do to defeat Russia?

I find Barbarossa very stable in the vanilla game and hopefully maybe Steve could add a decent AI in the coming months.

Bo

[warspite1]

Sorry bo I am unable to help with answers directly as I never play the scenarios - I am firmly committed to Global War. But I had to respond on a few things:

now I know my name is not Field Marshall von Rundstedt

Correct - you were christened General Goofy by this forum's biggest champion of the MWIF project if you recall [;)][:D]

I just started to really delve into Barbarossa in the past 2 weeks, now I know my name is not Field Marshall von Rundstedt, but I do not feel I can win Barbarossa as the Germans using the fast start scenario that came with the game.

There always seems to be a lack of German units as I move deeper and deeper into Russia. It takes a lot of German units to hopefully break river lines at the cost of becoming disorganized with a soso die roll.

The weather is killing me when it rains, now I have a beta tool that can adjust the weather but I am reluctant to use it because I want to play the game as you people do with the same limitations you have, and when it rains for a whole turn that can be devastating.

Also at the end of a turn and new units are being built it seems to favor the Russians, meaning I can build a lot more Russian infantry in 2 moves and get them set up on another river line when they come in later than I can could ever hope to do with new German units who start in Germany and outside of railing them into Russia and become disorganized for a whole turn.

The German infantry that can be built in 2 turns and be brought into the game and do some good are way to slow to even matter. What do you players do to defeat Russia?

And who says WIF isn't realistic? [;)]

[bo]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Sorry bo I am unable to help with answers directly as I never play the scenarios - I am firmly committed to Global War. But I had to respond on a few things:

now I know my name is not Field Marshall von Rundstedt

Correct - you were christened General Goofy by this forum's biggest champion of the MWIF project if you recall [;)][:D]

I just started to really delve into Barbarossa in the past 2 weeks, now I know my name is not Field Marshall von Rundstedt, but I do not feel I can win Barbarossa as the Germans using the fast start scenario that came with the game.

There always seems to be a lack of German units as I move deeper and deeper into Russia. It takes a lot of German units to hopefully break river lines at the cost of becoming disorganized with a soso die roll.

The weather is killing me when it rains, now I have a beta tool that can adjust the weather but I am reluctant to use it because I want to play the game as you people do with the same limitations you have, and when it rains for a whole turn that can be devastating.

Also at the end of a turn and new units are being built it seems to favor the Russians, meaning I can build a lot more Russian infantry in 2 moves and get them set up on another river line when they come in later than I can could ever hope to do with new German units who start in Germany and outside of railing them into Russia and become disorganized for a whole turn.

The German infantry that can be built in 2 turns and be brought into the game and do some good are way to slow to even matter. What do you players do to defeat Russia?

And who says WIF isn't realistic? [;)]

Forgot about General Goofy warspite, thank you for reminding me, your such a gem [:(] By the way my correct name is von Goofy [;)]

Bo

[Viktor_Kormel_slith]

Hi, I have played may times this scenario and yes if the russian player makes a good job except if german player has a very good luck it´s near impossible reproduce the historical advances but not a marginal victory. In global war I allways commit more troops to Barbarossa and if I can, at least two offensives chits. But in MWIF the thing that is totally impossible is completely conquer Russia like shows the game I´m playing the lasts months![:@]

[AlbertN]

The Barbarossa scenario is somehow desperate for the Germans for what I saw.
They're not only short of units, but of everything. The ZOC pratically stops them the first turn and the Soviets tend to be able to retreat in good order.
A bad roll stops lots of your army easily as well due to them being disorganized.

[paulderynck]

I always played Global War over the board and only played Barbarossa when playtesting NetPlay. IMO it comes down to weather rolls over player skill (as long as there's not a huge skill differential). Many Eastern Front wargames are like this, although WiF Global War is among the best I've ever played to NOT have a preponderance of weather luck. The mechanics are the same, so the big reason for the difference is the length of the scenario. There's no "second chances" for Germany in Barbarossa.

I have to say the Fast Start in MWiF Barbarossa is a very bad Russian set-up BTW, and I'd have to get really awful weather luck to lose against it as the Germans.

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
I have to say the Fast Start in MWiF Barbarossa is a very bad Russian set-up BTW

Maybe Peter's AIO setups are better and we could try an improved Fast Start version?? Ideally we could have Fast Starts for basic, standerd and advanced rules. Just sying, since we have time to kill here until the AIO and half map scenarios are functional...

[Jagdtiger14]

As for the board game...I think the Barbarossa scenario is meant only as a WiF training experience/tool. I only played it once (my first WiF experience) to learn mechanics. I never saw this scenario as a competitive stand alone game.

As for MWiF...which I have yet to buy...I am not aware of the Russian set up and what Paul mentions is probably very true, but if it follows the board game in intent, I think its meant to be a training tool, not a stand alone competitive game.

[Neilster]

It's worth noting that the historical Red Army set-up was awful, with forces and supply dumps etc far too far forward and just asking to be overrun or encircled. Added to this was the incompetent handling of the Red Army early in the campaign, such as stand-fast orders and suicidal counter-attacks.

Aside from the Moscow or Kiev debate, OKH handled the German forces professionally. In MWiF, the Soviet player is likely to play the Red Army in a superior manner to Stalin/STAVKA. As a result, it's no surprise if the historical outcome is difficult to achieve. A complicating factor is that it appears for play balance reasons that the early war Wehrmacht is stronger than historical.

Cheers, Neilster

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Sorry bo I am unable to help with answers directly as I never play the scenarios - I am firmly committed to Global War. But I had to respond on a few things:

now I know my name is not Field Marshall von Rundstedt

Correct - you were christened General Goofy by this forum's biggest champion of the MWIF project if you recall [;)][:D]

I just started to really delve into Barbarossa in the past 2 weeks, now I know my name is not Field Marshall von Rundstedt, but I do not feel I can win Barbarossa as the Germans using the fast start scenario that came with the game.

There always seems to be a lack of German units as I move deeper and deeper into Russia. It takes a lot of German units to hopefully break river lines at the cost of becoming disorganized with a soso die roll.

The weather is killing me when it rains, now I have a beta tool that can adjust the weather but I am reluctant to use it because I want to play the game as you people do with the same limitations you have, and when it rains for a whole turn that can be devastating.

Also at the end of a turn and new units are being built it seems to favor the Russians, meaning I can build a lot more Russian infantry in 2 moves and get them set up on another river line when they come in later than I can could ever hope to do with new German units who start in Germany and outside of railing them into Russia and become disorganized for a whole turn.

The German infantry that can be built in 2 turns and be brought into the game and do some good are way to slow to even matter. What do you players do to defeat Russia?

And who says WIF isn't realistic? [;)]

Forgot about General Goofy warspite, thank you for reminding me, your such a gem [:(] By the way my correct name is von Goofy [;)]

Bo

warspite1

General Bo von Goofy. Like it [;)]

[Orm]

Bo, you are a much better General than I am. [:)]

I never manage to win the Barbarossa scenario as USSR, while you seem to win with USSR most of the time. [&o]

[Ostwindflak]

I played the Barbarossa scenario three times when I first got the game. I could never get the Germans past the Lenningrad in the North, Smolensk in the Center, and Odessa in the South.

I need Warspite to teach me how to play! [:(]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

I played the Barbarossa scenario three times when I first got the game. I could never get the Germans past the Lenningrad in the North, Smolensk in the Center, and Odessa in the South.

I need Warpsite to teach me how to play! [:(]

warspite1

No Ostwindflak - I think you would be better off getting advice from someone who knows what they are doing.... [:(]

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Bo, you are a much better General than I am. [:)]

I never manage to win the Barbarossa scenario as USSR, while you seem to win with USSR most of the time. [&o]

Hi Orm, doing much better now in the fast start then before, had not played for a while and forgot a lot of the tactics, also had very good weather this time and the difference is pretty dramatic, the only real test will come in net play or a decent AI.

Bo

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Orm

Bo, you are a much better General than I am. [:)]

I never manage to win the Barbarossa scenario as USSR, while you seem to win with USSR most of the time. [&o]

Hi Orm, doing much better now in the fast start then before, had not played for a while and forgot a lot of the tactics, also had very good weather this time and the difference is pretty dramatic, the only real test will come in net play or a decent AI.

Bo

You are doing even better now. [X(] Those poor Germans don't stand a chance now. [;)][:D]

[bo]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

I played the Barbarossa scenario three times when I first got the game. I could never get the Germans past the Lenningrad in the North, Smolensk in the Center, and Odessa in the South.

I need Warpsite to teach me how to play! [:(]

warspite1

No Ostwindflak - I think you would be better off getting advice from someone who knows what they are doing.... [:(]

Leningrad in the north has to be attacked with minimum 2 to 1 odds and that is not easy to get. In the south it is the river crossings that are so crucial. michael set up the fast start I think probably he wanted the German advance to be swift and decisive in the first turn.

Of course after experimenting with the setup and using new game things can be adjusted.

Bo

[Orm]

I am glad that you feel you play better now. [:)]

Playing Barbarossa over net play might be happening soon. [:)]

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

As for the board game...I think the Barbarossa scenario is meant only as a WiF training experience/tool. I only played it once (my first WiF experience) to learn mechanics. I never saw this scenario as a competitive stand alone game.

As for MWiF...which I have yet to buy...I am not aware of the Russian set up and what Paul mentions is probably very true, but if it follows the board game in intent, I think its meant to be a training tool, not a stand alone competitive game.

Agreed 100% Jag, that is exactly what it is a ground and air training tool, I like it because it is more of a beer and pretzel game than the half maps or global war, and sometimes we all need something lighthearted RIGHT![;)]

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Neilster

It's worth noting that the historical Red Army set-up was awful, with forces and supply dumps etc far too far forward and just asking to be overrun or encircled. Added to this was the incompetent handling of the Red Army early in the campaign, such as stand-fast orders and suicidal counter-attacks.

Aside from the Moscow or Kiev debate, OKH handled the German forces professionally. In MWiF, the Soviet player is likely to play the Red Army in a superior manner to Stalin/STAVKA. As a result, it's no surprise if the historical outcome is difficult to achieve. A complicating factor is that it appears for play balance reasons that the early war Wehrmacht is stronger than historical.

Cheers, Neilster

Here's hoping Steve can come up with an AI that may work in between those 2 observations Neil.

Cheers

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Orm

I am glad that you feel you play better now. [:)]

Playing Barbarossa over net play might be happening soon. [:)]

Playing better now as the Germans Orm, have not seen much testing of netplay lately.

Bo