Will there ever be a sequel to WITP?

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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dr.hal
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RE: Will there ever be a sequel to WITP?

Post by dr.hal »

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Would you care as much about land gained and ships lost if it was so easy to learn and play..?

My dear Cannonfodder, I feel the need to clarify what I'm trying to say, as it clearly is not clear, clearly speaking. In no way do I desire to make the game "easier" indeed one of the reasons I got hold of the war-game when it was a board game in the late 70s was a result of knowing it was a "mega-game". "Easy" is not at all something I said or was alluding to. I think it could be made more efficient and effective but that in no way implies "easy" and if it seemingly imply this to folks out there, then I'm here to correct that impression. In truth I would like the US economy opened up as much as the Japanese economy, but that might be akin to dreaming. I would like the land aspect of the game to be more robust, I would like the scale decreased to 20 NM per hex, etc. None of these things would make it easier, indeed just the opposite. Maybe some of the clicks could be abridged, or other mechanics to make it flow better, but that's a besides the point issue. I was thinking more along the lines of the foundational aspects of the game. I trust that this gives you a better understanding of what I was trying to relay in my potentially piss poor prior posts. Hal
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KenchiSulla
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RE: Will there ever be a sequel to WITP?

Post by KenchiSulla »

Hi Hal, my post was not directed at you, more at the OP. Just my friendly 2 cents worth...

Your scale remark is interesting though.. You could make a study of the effects on the current engine to see if it is viable for a Pacific scale game...
AKA Cannonfodder

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obvert
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RE: Will there ever be a sequel to WITP?

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Not saying that the game cannot be improved but perhaps you should consider what type of customer you attract with this little gem... Isn't what we've got and some of us modded good enough? And what would the effect of a "sequel" be? I used to play and love Mediëval Total War: Viking Invasion. It was a great multiplayer experience, and then came along Rome... It destroyed it (for me at least)..

In short, isn't the amount of units, mouseclicks, labor and the long list of mechanics and rules what actually makes us love the game and makes us love the various units and results (up to the point were restless sleep is preceding carrier battles...)? Would you care as much about land gained and ships lost if it was so easy to learn and play..?

It's not just this. It's the mystery of having clues, getting to understand most of it, but it being so large, so incomprehensible as a whole, that you never really can get it all. That and being given agency to do with it what you will, the maleability of these endless options. That is what makes it amazing.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
Andy Mac
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RE: Will there ever be a sequel to WITP?

Post by Andy Mac »

My view unlikely unless its a new team

2by3 after WITP went for simpler games not this kind of mega detail freak game
AE team pretty much same thing although we still tinker with AE and my respect for what 2by3 achieved in original WITP went up a lot after trying to do AE !!!

I poured 2 years of my life into AE - the AI alone was over 2000 man hours of my time when I stopped counting and that was after we couldn't get it to work and went back to basically a scripted AI

And lets be clear I spent probably well over £1,000 on books for research and burned out 1 laptop and a desktop from running AI v AI tests so this game cost me a lot of time and money !!!

Would it be economical to do another for a software company - in my view unlikely at this scale never say never but it would be a tough ask and would probably need some volounteer resource to make it economical for a software company.

Andy
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Kull
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RE: Will there ever be a sequel to WITP?

Post by Kull »

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

My view unlikely unless its a new team

2by3 after WITP went for simpler games not this kind of mega detail freak game
AE team pretty much same thing although we still tinker with AE and my respect for what 2by3 achieved in original WITP went up a lot after trying to do AE !!!

I poured 2 years of my life into AE - the AI alone was over 2000 man hours of my time when I stopped counting and that was after we couldn't get it to work and went back to basically a scripted AI

And lets be clear I spent probably well over £1,000 on books for research and burned out 1 laptop and a desktop from running AI v AI tests so this game cost me a lot of time and money !!!

Would it be economical to do another for a software company - in my view unlikely at this scale never say never but it would be a tough ask and would probably need some volounteer resource to make it economical for a software company.

Andy

A ground-up rewrite of everything is probably a bridge too far. If you get together the right team, probably including a large number of retirees who can do most of the work gratis (because they have the time and are willing to work for love of the game, and little else), it might be possible. As Don indicated, you'd also need some folks from the last team to ensure the new group knows what can and cannot be done (in order to minimize the wild goose chases).

As Feltan shows (good post, btw) doing it commercially is not likely to be viable.
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RE: Will there ever be a sequel to WITP?

Post by claystone_MatrixForum »

ORIGINAL: Feltan

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

I agree with you Bill, there would have to be continuity with the previous gaming system in order to retain the old player and still attract the new. A difficult balance. I think that the Silent Hunter series lost sight of that and that's why it is no longer competitive (at least for me!). Not being an engineer I'm far from being knowledgeable about how much time and effort it would take to do a major upgrade, the core of my statement is that Matrix must have look at this concept (a number of times), as they are good business people that they have successfully found a "niche" market, and have come to the conclusion that this system will not be going much further. Hal


Hal,

This is what I do for a living -- run large software efforts. The lingua franca of the trade when discussing the cost is "hours," as in labor hours. The more functionality, the more screens, the more the hours estimate goes up.

WITP-AE is both large and complex from a software development perspective. Really big. I have no inside knowledge, but I would venture to say the development to date could easily be measured in multiple person-years of labor hours.

A person-year is 2000 hours -- one schlep working on nothing else for an entire year.

The price of a labor hour is all over the board depending on the industry you are in. The cost includes salary, fringe (vacation, sick, etc.), general and administrative (G&A, to include covering the cost of covering HR, IT and the other support personnel in a company), 401K/retirement, health care, etc. It is packed, and depending on the industry you can see the value of an hour of labor skyrocket.



That is $200K for a person year.

Going on total gut feeling, and given the complexity of WITP-AE, a significant upgrade could easily eat up 3-5 person-years of labor. Go in the middle at 4 person-years; 4 people for a year or 8 for six months.

Assuming they are not volunteers, that is $800K. Not to include marketing, distribution, etc. Figure a cool $1M for a sizeable upgrade.


Regards,
Feltan


That is just crazy. With $1M in real estate you can make $3m to $4m profit, but in the gaming industry you are barely breaking even??!!?!?

Why are the numbers not working in gaming and why are people in this industry if these numbers hold true?

I mention i would invest my money into this game, but if it cost $1m to make it happen i would sink my $1m in NYC real estate first.

..
oaltinyay
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RE: Will there ever be a sequel to WITP?

Post by oaltinyay »

ORIGINAL: Feltan

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

....

At $150 per license, they need to sell approximately 6700 licenses to break even.

Costs can be trimmed, and trimmed a lot, especially if you shop for labor or ship the work via the internet off-shore. <-- that happens all the time

You could cut the estimate in half with some innovative thinking, but that still requires 3400 license sales to break even.

And, I have no idea what the install base is for this game, nor how many licenses have been sold. However, I am pretty sure it is a "success" for Matrix due to the love and volunteer labor of numerous individuals.

Regards,
Feltan


I'll buy 2 copies ! Count me in Sirs...

Is there a way to poll how many will commit to buying a possible WITPAE2 release ? I believe it's called crowd sourcings, in fact it's possible we can start funding the game right now .. I am sure this will turn some heads in Matrix.
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wdolson
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RE: Will there ever be a sequel to WITP?

Post by wdolson »

ORIGINAL: claystone
That is just crazy. With $1M in real estate you can make $3m to $4m profit, but in the gaming industry you are barely breaking even??!!?!?

Why are the numbers not working in gaming and why are people in this industry if these numbers hold true?

I mention i would invest my money into this game, but if it cost $1m to make it happen i would sink my $1m in NYC real estate first.

..

For a grognard game, sales are counted in the thousands of copies. For a blockbuster game like Grand Theft Auto, or other popular titles, the volume is counted in the millions. The return on those games is in the multi-millions. That's where the money is in gaming. Grognard games is a boutique industry.

But the game biz (both big and small) is somewhat like the movie business with Matrix/Sliterine serving as the distributor with companies like 2X3 more like the movie production companies. I doubt most programmers in this industry make the big bucks common in IT. A few probably do well like Gary Grigsby's people who are gathering royalties from many game titles they have worked on over a couple of decades. Those who are just starting out in the industry are probably making peanuts until they have a success or two and start collecting royalties.

Anyway, if you want to make a lot of money in the game business, invest in a popular first person shooter or an a game for iPhones. Those have a high upside. Those who make money in the grognard game biz probably don't retire wealthy. Not everyone does things to make a mint.

Bill
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rroberson
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RE: Will there ever be a sequel to WITP?

Post by rroberson »

All good points Bill, but given that many paid what at the time was a very high price for a game (and I think the game is still going for 100 dollars now) What makes you think that people wouldn't line up for a new version of the game with a streamlined UI better graphics etc...?

I don't know, I get the whole you guys need to make money, but I see this forum still going strong after 10 years...the popularity of this game (unless maybe it didn't do as well as we thought) seems to be as high as it was when the original came out 10 years ago.

Ah well we have this one...and it has come a long long way...so I will keep sending my carriers out to be sunk :-).

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