Calling all Frenchmen!

[geofflambert]

Well, as a gorn I am of British ancestry. Nobody knows what that is but it might be French.

[Skyland]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I know there is at least one knowledgeable Frenchman on this forum and am asking for some assistance.

I have previously purchased French Battleships 1922-1956 (Jordan and Dumas) and French Cruisers 1922-1956 (Jordan and Moulin). These books certainly look the business and I have enjoyed reading the sections I have so far.

So question. How reliable and accurate are these books as sources of reference for the French Navy of WWII?

As ever, many thanks for any assistance.

Hi,
I own those 2 books as there is no equivalent synthesis in french.
I will order the 3rd one also.
French books are usually a monograph so dedicated to one or 2 ship classes with more detailled informations on each ship.
If you look at the sources of each books (see page 228 of French Cruisers 1922-1956 as example), you will see that the authors refer to those french monographs.
So same opinion as Gilbert about the authors.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Skyland

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I know there is at least one knowledgeable Frenchman on this forum and am asking for some assistance.

I have previously purchased French Battleships 1922-1956 (Jordan and Dumas) and French Cruisers 1922-1956 (Jordan and Moulin). These books certainly look the business and I have enjoyed reading the sections I have so far.

So question. How reliable and accurate are these books as sources of reference for the French Navy of WWII?

As ever, many thanks for any assistance.

Hi,
I own those 2 books as there is no equivalent synthesis in french.
I will order the 3rd one also.
French books are usually a monograph so dedicated to one or 2 ship classes with more detailled informations on each ship.
If you look at the sources of each books (see page 228 of French Cruisers 1922-1956 as example), you will see that the authors refer to those french monographs.
So same opinion as Gilbert about the authors.

warspite1

Thank-you Skyland.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

You've probably already seen the Conway's reference; it says she was a mine-laying cruiser and (in my opinion) may have not been of sufficient interest to your French sources. Did you know that "French Fries" are actually "Belgian Fries"? We didn't need to rename them "Freedom Fries" after all.

We called them Pomme Frites in Germany and they are DELUXE with mayonaisse (instead of catsup)..Pronounced Pome Freetz

I'm going to try that! I'm sick of ketchup and sold my shares of Heinz. Never got into vinegar.

Used to love Heinz...till somewhat recently..................

[fcharton]

Hi Warspite,

About the Forces de Haute Mer, I suspect there is some confusion. The name "Forces de Haute Mer" (blue water forces) was the official term Vichy used for the French Navy after the 1940 armistice. They were based in Toulon, as it was the only arsenal Vichy controlled (Cherbourg, Brest and Lorient were in occupied France), and was under the command of admiral Laborde.

In 1939, I don't think this designation makes sense. As Gilbert explained, French Naval forces were then divided into commands, each attached to a specific arsenal.

"Forces de raid" are more a role than a proper unit designation. I believe the term was used for specific squadrons, consisting of fast and modern ships, which would raid enemy task forces as they moved into position. Their initial base was Brest (to attack ships moving into the Atlantic), but some of these ships were apparently sent to the Mediterranean later on.

Hope this helps
Francois

[Gilbert]

About the Forces de Haute Mer, I suspect there is some confusion. The name "Forces de Haute Mer" (blue water forces) was the official term Vichy used for the French Navy after the 1940 armistice. They were based in Toulon, as it was the only arsenal Vichy controlled (Cherbourg, Brest and Lorient were in occupied France), and was under the command of admiral Laborde.

In 1939, I don't think this designation makes sense.

François, this is true but l'Etat Français (Vichy) just continued to use the term "Forces de haute Mer".

I will quote "La Marine Française 1939-1940 by Michel Bertrand Ed du Portail 1984, foreword by Rear Admiral Chatelle, Chief of Navy Historical Department, p.32:
"Les Forces Maritimes comprennent :
- Les Forces Navales et Aériennes de Haute Mer,
- Les Forces navales, aériennes et terrestres de défense du littoral,
- les écoles destinées à la formation militaire et technique du personnel, qui sont rattachées tantôt aux Forces Navales de haute mer, tantôt aux forces de défense du littoral."
"Les principales forces navales à la veille de la seconde guerre mondiale sont:
- La Flotte de Haute Mer, comprenant plusieurs escadres.
- L'escadre qui comprend plusieurs divisions,
- La Division, généralement composée de trois unités."

Mais nous voilà bien loin de la Guerre du Pacifique, LOL!

Gilbert

[warspite1]

This is what I love about researching this stuff. The chances of finding two sources that agree with one another are never good [&:]

Still fun to learn though [:)]

[warspite1]

Gents Help!! [:)]

According to O'Hara (On Seas Contested) the French had three overseas commands:

DNL (Levant)
FNEO (Saigon)
Cdt Maroc (Casablanca)

According to French Cruisers 1922-56 there is also:
Station navale du Pacifique
Station navale de l'Ocean Indien
Marine Indochine

Were these not independent commands perhaps and came under other commands?

In the latter book there is also mention of:
Forces Maritime de l'Atlantique Ouest (Antilles)
and also
Dispositif d'Oran - what are these?

Are these commands set up post the war starting perhaps?

Finding out where each ship was should be relatively easy - finding out the organisation of the Marine Navale is proving anything but!

So confused [&:]

[Skyland]

Hi,

Organization in 1939-1940 is described here (in french) : http://atf40.forumculture.net/t6205-la- ... -juin-1940

For overseas from 39 to 1/1/40 (out of Continental Europe) :

Under direct order of Amiral de la Flotte :

-1) Marine Maroc
9ème DT : Forbin ° (CC Sticca) - Basque (CC Caron)
Aéronavale : E1 (CC Mornu) – B1 (LV Bedos)
Sous-marins détachés au Maroc : 4ème DSM – 18ème DSM – Junon – Danaé – Diane – Eurydice

-2) Marine AOF :
Division Navale de l’AOF : Calais (CC Luca)
Aéronavale : E4

-3) Théâtre de l’Atlantique Ouest :
Jeanne d’Arc (CV Rouyer)
Station de Terre Neuve : Ville d’Ys (CF Pont)
Aéronavale : Section 8S2 (LV Evin)

-4) Division Navale du Levant :
D’Iberville (CF Arden)
Marine Beyrouth : Djebel Sanin (EV Hussenot Desenonges)
11ème DSM détachée de 6ème ESM

-5) Forces Navales d’Extrême Orient :
5ème DC : Lamotte Picquet **** (VAE Decoux – CV Béranger) - Suffren (CV Dillard)
Avisos : Amiral Charner – Rigault de Genouilly (CC Planté) – Savorgnan de Brazza (CF de Badens) – Tahure
Flottille du Yang Tsé : Francis Garnier ° - Balny – Doudart de Lagrée – Argus ( station du Si Kiang)
Marine Indochine : Marne – Avalanche – Commandant Bourdais – Mytho – Tourane – Vigilante – La Pérouse – Octant – Astrolabe
Station du Pacifique : Dumont d’Urville (CF Arzur)
Marine Djibouti
Station de l’Océan Indien : Bougainville (CF Fabre de la Ripelle)
Marine Madagascar
Etablissements Français d’Océanie : Zélée + Station de Tahiti

6 )Amiral Sud
4ème région (VAE Rivet - Bizerte),
contre-amiraux commandant le Dispositif d’Oran (CA Donval) et le Dispositif Maroc (CA Sablé).

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Dear Mr. Gorn - have you seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hnBp7x2QAE

Are you kidding? I did all that work and didn't make scale. My union rep said I have plenty of scales.

[&o] [&o]

[Skyland]

After 1/1/40 - (out of Continental Europe)

Under direct order of Amiral de la Flotte :

FNEO
-Marine Indochine
-Station Pacifique
-Marine Djibouti,
-Station de l’Océan Indien
-Marine Madagascar
-Etablissements Français d’Océanie (Tahiti)

Force X (VA Duplat) : Dakar

Théâtre de l’Atlantique Ouest (Antilles/Station Terre Neuve)

Amiral Afrique :
- Marine Maroc
- Marine AOF

Amiral Sud :
-Forces Navales de la 4ème Région (Bizerte)
- Division Navale du Levant (Marine Levant, Marine Djibouti)
- Marine Oran
- Secteur Oran
-Secteur d’Alger
-Secteur de Philippeville
-Secteur de Bougie
-Secteur de Bône
-Secteur de Bizerte
-Secteur de Tunis
-Secteur de Sousse
-Secteur de Sfax

[Skyland]

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Gilbert - glad to see that these authors have your seal of approval - I have French Destroyers 1922-1956 on order for June.

Just received the book. It seems very good read and very informative.

[JeffroK]

Back to the original question about the ship's name I find

Ship Builder Laid Down Launched Completed Fate
Pluton Lorient Navy Yard 16 Apr 28 10 Apr 29 1 Oct 31 Lost 13 Sep 39

Displacement: 4,773 tons/4,849 tonnes (standard); 6,500 tons/6,604 tonnes (full load).
Length: 500ft 3in/152.5m, (ca); 472ft 6in/144m (pp).
Beam: 51ft 3in/15.6m; Draught: 17ft/5.18m (mean).
Machinery: 2-shaft Breguet SR geared turbines; 4 boilers.
Performance: 57,000shp=30kts; Bunkerage: 1,200 tons oil fuel.
Range: n/k.
Protection: nil.
Guns: four 5.5in (4xl); four 75mm (4xl); two 37mm (2xl); twelve 13.2mm MGs (4x3).
Mines: 290. Torpedoes: nil.
Aircraft: not equipped.
Complement: 424.

Authorised under the 1925 programme, this ship was designed as a dedicated minelaying cruiser very much in the concept of the British Adventure, of which she was a slightly smaller version. Like her British contemporary, whilst classified as a cruiser she was given the firepower of a destroyer or contre-torpilleur and, although she was faster than Adventure, did not quite have the speed of a true cruiser. The machinery arrangement, a twin-screw geared turbine layout, developed 57,000shp for a designed maximum speed of 30kts. Her main armament was the standard 138.6mm (5.45in) M1927 pattern also fitted in the Aigle and Cassard classes of contre-torpilleurs. Up to 290 mines could be carried, accommodated on the spacious mine deck, where there were four separate mine tracks. No aircraft or torpedo fittings were included in the design. From the start this ship was intended to have a dual role, as she was also equipped as a troop transport. However, in 1933 she was also designated for use as a gunnery training ship (to replace thc worn out Gueydon) and fitted out for this role as well, despite strong objections from her current CO, who feared an adverse effect on the main role of minelaying. These fears were well founded, and may well have contributed to her tragic loss Finally, it was decided in 1939 to refit her as a seagoing training ship for sub-lieutenants, in which role she was to start duty on 1 June 1940 with the new name of La Tour d'Auvergne. In the event, her loss occurred before either the change in role or change of name could be effected.

Modifications

By 1936, shields had been fitted to the secondary guns, and she later had a modified crane fitted. Aerial supports were added to the after funnel, and a new, taller, director was fitted atop the bridge.

Service

Pluton joined the Training Division of the 1st Squadron, based at Toulon, when she finally entered service in 1932. In 1933 she became gunnery training ship, remaining in this duty until her loss. Fears of the appearance of German Panzerschiffe off Africa as a result of increased political tensions led to the despatch of the minelayer to Casablanca, the ship sailing on 2 September. Unfortunately, plans were altered on her arrival, and while armed mines were being disembarked on 13 September a huge explosion took place which destroyed the ship and caused many casualties.

This is at the excellent site http://www.world-war.co.uk/ which has emphasis on WW2 Cruisers but also covers BB & BC. Thousands of pictures are on the site.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Skyland

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Gilbert - glad to see that these authors have your seal of approval - I have French Destroyers 1922-1956 on order for June.

Just received the book. It seems very good read and very informative.

warspite1

Yes, mine arrived a few weeks ago. I haven't been able to give it much more than a flick through due to other books on the go, but from what I have read, it appears to be up to the same high standard as the other two.

What I especially like about these three volumes is that in addition to the ship data, the authors provide an overview of the actions and engagements the ships took part in. This kind of added value is annoyingly missing from say, Friedman's books or Stalin's Ocean Going Fleet for example.

Quality [&o]