Upgrading during campaigns
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Upgrading during campaigns
Playing several of the WWII campaigns,and i am wondering how often should i,if at all,upgrade my equipment and infantry?I am asking because i read here somewhere that everytime you upgrade that units take a hit to experience.Is it really worth upgrading that PzIb to whatever?(thinking back to my panzer general days,where i had a 15 point PzIb unit that would wreak havoc on even the latter war battlefields,because of their experience.)
"..if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away."
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Raskolnikov
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I think this will depend on the campaign you are playing - in particular, its length. In a long WW2 campaign, upgrades, especially of armour, are critical. I use the Encyclopaedia to time upgrades so as to make the most of the points available, e.g. don't upgrade your tanks if after the next battle you will be able to purchase Tigers.
I can't see a PzIb surviving very long into a campaign if it is not upgraded - and if it is taken out, you lose the benefit of all that accrued experience.
Infantry units are different as they generally alter only once or twice over the war - but I would recommend upgrading those GE Inf Sec to SS Inf Sec (with Panzerfaust) at some point. Even if you take an experience hit, I feel their increased killing power is well worth it.
I always try and pick starting units with some kind of reference to what I want in later battles, frequently taking a PzG (Mot) Co, and gradually upgrading to an SS (Mech) Co.
Rask.
I can't see a PzIb surviving very long into a campaign if it is not upgraded - and if it is taken out, you lose the benefit of all that accrued experience.
Infantry units are different as they generally alter only once or twice over the war - but I would recommend upgrading those GE Inf Sec to SS Inf Sec (with Panzerfaust) at some point. Even if you take an experience hit, I feel their increased killing power is well worth it.
I always try and pick starting units with some kind of reference to what I want in later battles, frequently taking a PzG (Mot) Co, and gradually upgrading to an SS (Mech) Co.
Rask.
veni, vidi, nates calce concidi
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Sturmpionier
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exp
Ah, good to see another PG alum. I think I will never tire of going back to that one.
Anyway, I have never noticed an experience hit when you upgrade a unit. What you may be thinking of is that when you upgrade an inf unit to a tank unit, their command ratings are misaligned and it takes time and experience to overcome that. Meaning, it will take a while for it to get used to being a tank instead of an inf unit.
What you may be confusing that with is that when your unit takes on replacements (or has to be replaced altogether) those guys come in with no exp and thus reduce your overall exp score. There is no option for getting 'veteran replacements' like in PG. Too bad.
Anyway, I have never noticed an experience hit when you upgrade a unit. What you may be thinking of is that when you upgrade an inf unit to a tank unit, their command ratings are misaligned and it takes time and experience to overcome that. Meaning, it will take a while for it to get used to being a tank instead of an inf unit.
What you may be confusing that with is that when your unit takes on replacements (or has to be replaced altogether) those guys come in with no exp and thus reduce your overall exp score. There is no option for getting 'veteran replacements' like in PG. Too bad.
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash
Re: exp
Originally posted by Sturmpionier
Ah, good to see another PG alum. I think I will never tire of going back to that one.
I liked PG,even made it to the invasion of Britian,which i managed to beat with a couple turns left...only to be told that American forces had landed and forced me back:mad: Though for opening intros AG had the best with that old newsreel stuff about the allies having men,ships,tanks,and aircraft by the thousands ready to go:)
So upgrading a unit into the same type,ie infantry,armor,etc.,holds no penalty ?
"..if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away."
It's been a while since I played a Long Campaign, but I recall suffering a reduction in experience for a game or two. The units seemed to "get back to normal" very quickly after upgrading (1 to 2 games).
I wouldn't bounce around from inf to armor and back very much. Keep your inf as inf and your AFVs as AFVs. After a dozen battles or so, you will have so many reinforcement/repair points that the only real concern is that small dip in experience you suffer. I recall having about 20,000 repair points left when I quit my last Long Campaign. That was about the time I caught the PBEM disease/addiction.
I wouldn't bounce around from inf to armor and back very much. Keep your inf as inf and your AFVs as AFVs. After a dozen battles or so, you will have so many reinforcement/repair points that the only real concern is that small dip in experience you suffer. I recall having about 20,000 repair points left when I quit my last Long Campaign. That was about the time I caught the PBEM disease/addiction.
Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom
Actually, when you upgrade from a like type of unit, say tank A to tank B, there is supposed to be a small reduction in experience points. Now I don't remember if this is in the overall experience level, which determines the icon, or in the inf, arty, armor ratings that are listed under the unit commander.
If it is the former, then it's possible that the point reduction does not cross the experience transition level and so the unit may appear to be the same i.e. elite or whatever. If it is the latter then I'm not sure that that affects the overall experience level.
Regardless, it is fine and appropriate to upgrade, you just don't want to do it every time a new tank comes out. Plan where you want to end up beforehand and upgrade accordingly.
Bob, you type faster than I do, I guess.
If it is the former, then it's possible that the point reduction does not cross the experience transition level and so the unit may appear to be the same i.e. elite or whatever. If it is the latter then I'm not sure that that affects the overall experience level.
Regardless, it is fine and appropriate to upgrade, you just don't want to do it every time a new tank comes out. Plan where you want to end up beforehand and upgrade accordingly.
Bob, you type faster than I do, I guess.
Jim1954
KMC/T
So far thanks for the advice everyone,every little bit seems to help in this very detailed game.Now all i have left to do is to have the Chinese realize they are outclassed,the Poles understand they are beaten,the Japanese to figure out that martial spirit does not overcome firepower,and the French to not put maginot line forts in North Africa on the beaches:mad:
"..if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away."
Originally posted by Jim1954
Bob, you type faster than I do, I guess.
Not me. I think Goblin beat us both to the punch (or "Submit Reply" key).
And what are you doing on the Forum!? Go home and deploy your doomed German forces!:mad:
Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom
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UndercoverNotChickenSalad
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Capt. Pixel
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How much, how soon?
In my experience, you lose about as much experience in an upgrade as you'd gain in 2 or 2-1/2 battles. This depends on what kind of involvement the unit had. The more shots they fired and targets KIA'd, the greater the experience gained.
Overall, I tend to time replacement units every 2 to 4 battles, with thought given to the encyclopedia listings and the next advancement in technology. This way, I generally end up after a 10 battle campaign, (I like the random campaign generator), with contemporary, quality units having experience between 80 and 100.
As a side note, I try to plan ahead with the unit types selected so they are consistently of the same type throughout the upgrades (Inf, Arty, Armor). Upgrading the wagon (armor exp) that schlepped my mortars in '40 to a howitzer (arty exp) in '43 just means I've got a crummy howitzer with really low Arty experience.
However, that same wagon could be upgraded to an SPA, HT or some other vehicle, and continue to gain Armor experience.
Buy cheap, upgrade often, sell high.
Overall, I tend to time replacement units every 2 to 4 battles, with thought given to the encyclopedia listings and the next advancement in technology. This way, I generally end up after a 10 battle campaign, (I like the random campaign generator), with contemporary, quality units having experience between 80 and 100.
As a side note, I try to plan ahead with the unit types selected so they are consistently of the same type throughout the upgrades (Inf, Arty, Armor). Upgrading the wagon (armor exp) that schlepped my mortars in '40 to a howitzer (arty exp) in '43 just means I've got a crummy howitzer with really low Arty experience.
However, that same wagon could be upgraded to an SPA, HT or some other vehicle, and continue to gain Armor experience.
Buy cheap, upgrade often, sell high.
"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson
- Stonewall Jackson
USMC in long campaigns
I'm using my revised OOB, based on more historically correct info. The USMC has an adantage with Elite Rifle Companies if you start in August 1942. The problem is the Weapons Company D. My revised OOB has a Weapons Co with 4 81mm mortars, 4 37mm ATG, 2 50 cal HMG, and three Weps MG platoons, each with 8 .30 cal HMGs. This is the actual TOE. Now, this is a generous supply of weapons for a battalion, but it creates some problems when upgrading, as the battalion establishment changed each successive year of the Pacific War. I ended up attaching a Weps MG Plt to each company, which corresponds to how these were generally used in field ops. For a defend or delay mission this is good, but for a meeting engagement it's an unwieldy setup. Beginning in 1943, you have the new 12-man E squads, and the disbanding of the BAR squads. In my experience, I change the BAR squads to Assault Squads, and break down the MG Platoons to distribute them to the rifle platoons. Each company also has 2 30 cal MMGs , so the 9th platoon gets an MG, too. As an alternative, you could change some of these BAR squads to MGs, and the MG teams to Bazookas. This is more historical, but I'm starting to understand how this continual reorganization played havoc with the command structure, with the endless cross-attaching of units and new weapons being issued. The administration of all this must've been a nightmare for the staffs. The Battalion Landing Team also has three platoons of M2A4s, which are upgraded to M3s and then M4A2 Shermans. I also have 2 75mm pack howitzers, with transport, which I change to M3 GMC SP 75s as upgrade points permit. As the nature of the war changed, so did the composition of the forces to achieve the missions. Add to this the Recon Patrols, which can be converted to LRRPs, and the Raiders, which I keep throughout the war despite their being disbanded in 1944 and folded into line Rifle Regiments, and it's a fascinating but sometimes frustrating period of transition and growth. The good news is that by the end of the campaign, each of the 13-man F or G series USMC squads have become wrecking crews, and no other infantry in the game (IMO) can touch them for killing ability at close range. If you want to have fun in a long campaign , forget about the Germans and their armored toys. Command a battalion of Leathernecks, and get up close & personal in the Hell of the Pacific. Uncommon valor, indeed.
My Experiences:
Keep things of the same type until a year or two into the war. After every battle, Rally and Command (of all sorts!) will rise. Thus an Infantry commander after a few battles may be able to handle a tank crew as well as a tank purchased with support points. So, if you need to, you can dragoon different types of units into other service. It's just usually not wise to.
Experience will rise gradually. If you upgrade a damaged unit before repairing it, the unit will lose much experience. Otherwise, it will tend to lose about one battle's experience. This can be a big thing early on in the war. It will be a huge thing if you turn your Panzer I into a PzII, then into an SdKfz 8-Rad, then a Virbelvind, then a PZIV, all in consecutive battles. Your crew won't know what hit them!!
Morale is the fun one. Leave your unit in a burning hex at the end of a battle and see what their morale is at the end, especially if they've taken many casualties. Humiliation of the unit and platoon also seem to have an effect. I've had tank crews go from 89 morale down to 44 morale. The platoon's vehicles, save one tank, as well as 2 vehicles' crews, were wiped out. The replacements, which I upgraded too, were horrendous. The only one with respectable morale was the surviving tank... who tidily had in the 90's for morale. (He was my mop-up team... and had also already been converted to a flame-tank the battle before.
)
Morale is fun, you can watch it fluctuate rapidly. A good way to increase the morale of a depleted unit quickly is to use it to annihilate weakened enemies. Arty-killer duty is good for this. They will be full of **** and fire by the next battle.
Finally, a note. Units built for special tasks should not be assigned to these tasks until they have a goodly amount of experience under their belts. EG, Special Operations. Unless you have a 60-turn battle, they will almost certainly not make it to the field in an early-war fight. Wait until they have 90+ exp. Recon, either use them as recon immediately and accept your losses until you've got some experienced recon, or make them regular infantry (or Cavalry/Motorcycle) and allow them to gain experience (80, +/-) that way first. Forward Observers... unless you have C&C on, either use Snipers for this OR make an FO then upgrade her to a Sniper. Which brings me to snipers. They and Engineers are about the only ones who don't require more than 50 exp to do their job. No, they won't do it well, but they can do it. (Well, Conscripts can clear mines with 10 exp... but the thought of using them for that turns my stomach. 
)
So in short, like everyone else said: Plan your upgrades a bit. No sense in changing a 6.5mm armed SNLF squad to a 7.7mm if you really want to upgrade to the Type 100 SMG in the end. I would say don't stick to your plan religiously, though. I've had Mule Packs serve converted to ATG's and handsomely hold back some Russian armor in a tight spot. (Got some rare experience, too!)
And yes, buy cheap and sell high... though if you're like me and enjoy smaller battles, you can start your war not using crap!
Experience will rise gradually. If you upgrade a damaged unit before repairing it, the unit will lose much experience. Otherwise, it will tend to lose about one battle's experience. This can be a big thing early on in the war. It will be a huge thing if you turn your Panzer I into a PzII, then into an SdKfz 8-Rad, then a Virbelvind, then a PZIV, all in consecutive battles. Your crew won't know what hit them!!
Morale is the fun one. Leave your unit in a burning hex at the end of a battle and see what their morale is at the end, especially if they've taken many casualties. Humiliation of the unit and platoon also seem to have an effect. I've had tank crews go from 89 morale down to 44 morale. The platoon's vehicles, save one tank, as well as 2 vehicles' crews, were wiped out. The replacements, which I upgraded too, were horrendous. The only one with respectable morale was the surviving tank... who tidily had in the 90's for morale. (He was my mop-up team... and had also already been converted to a flame-tank the battle before.
)Morale is fun, you can watch it fluctuate rapidly. A good way to increase the morale of a depleted unit quickly is to use it to annihilate weakened enemies. Arty-killer duty is good for this. They will be full of **** and fire by the next battle.
Finally, a note. Units built for special tasks should not be assigned to these tasks until they have a goodly amount of experience under their belts. EG, Special Operations. Unless you have a 60-turn battle, they will almost certainly not make it to the field in an early-war fight. Wait until they have 90+ exp. Recon, either use them as recon immediately and accept your losses until you've got some experienced recon, or make them regular infantry (or Cavalry/Motorcycle) and allow them to gain experience (80, +/-) that way first. Forward Observers... unless you have C&C on, either use Snipers for this OR make an FO then upgrade her to a Sniper. Which brings me to snipers. They and Engineers are about the only ones who don't require more than 50 exp to do their job. No, they won't do it well, but they can do it. (Well, Conscripts can clear mines with 10 exp... but the thought of using them for that turns my stomach.
)So in short, like everyone else said: Plan your upgrades a bit. No sense in changing a 6.5mm armed SNLF squad to a 7.7mm if you really want to upgrade to the Type 100 SMG in the end. I would say don't stick to your plan religiously, though. I've had Mule Packs serve converted to ATG's and handsomely hold back some Russian armor in a tight spot. (Got some rare experience, too!)
And yes, buy cheap and sell high... though if you're like me and enjoy smaller battles, you can start your war not using crap!
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Raskolnikov
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