Naval War Day-by-Day

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Its nice to see the timeline build up to the development for the key engagement at the River Plate in a few months. The Brits sure did do the right thing with Graf Spee but they also got lucky her captain was not a fighter, Her Majesties forces could of been hurt worse then they were.

warspite1

Interesting viewpoint. I will be taking a different stance (but will wait until the time comes to set out what that is).

[Jagdtiger14]

I kinda agree with Warspite here...Force G would have dispatched the Graf Spee...question is, what would it take with it. Force F and H were not enough, and I think the Graf Spee would have come out ahead if faced with either of those two forces. I think the Germans would have done better to perhaps sell the ship to the Argentinians at that point rather than scuttle him. Sad story for a good captain and a good ship.

[warspite1]

October 1939 (North Atlantic, South Atlantic, North Sea and the Baltic)

The Allied and German navies continued their thankless, day to day, patrolling in all weathers. On the 9th the new Town-class cruiser HMS Belfast achieved notable success with the capture of the 13,615 ton German liner Cap Norte off Iceland. The ship was in Brazil at the start of the war, and was trying to reach Germany disguised as the Swedish Ancona, when she was intercepted and captured before she could be scuttled.


Following her capture, Cap Norte was put in the charge of the Ministry of War Transport (MOWT), re-named Empire Trooper and put into service as a troopship. She survived the war.



HMS Belfast was responsible for the capture of Cap Norte – the largest German ship captured by the Northern Patrol in the Second World War. In a great many cases the German crews successfully scuttled their ships when intercepted. In November 1939 the cruiser was to be removed from the Royal Navy order of battle until 1942 after she struck a mine and broke her back. The mine had been laid in October by U-21.



On the 16th Belfast’s sisters Edinburgh and Southampton, along with the destroyer Mohawk, came under attack from German bombers while in the Firth of Forth. Edinburgh suffered light damage from near misses but Southampton was hit by a bomb that penetrated three decks before exploding upon exit. Mohawk was damaged by splinters that killed her commanding officer and 14 others.

Armed Merchant Cruisers – converted merchant vessels - were by now making their way to the front line and supplementing the Royal Navy’s patrol capability. Three such vessels, HM Ships Rawalpindi, Scotstoun and Transylvania all achieved successes during October – either capturing or forcing to scuttle three enemy ships. None of these ships would survive for long – and we shall hear more from HMS Rawalpindi very shortly.

Further south the French were deploying submarines and surface ships for the same purpose – also to good effect.

The Kriegsmarine were also deploying destroyers and other vessels in anti-shipping operations in the North Sea and the Baltic at this time. These patrols resulted in many neutral merchant vessels bound for the UK being intercepted and diverted to Germany.

Sources:
The War at Sea 1939-45 (Stephen Roskill)
Chronology of the War at Sea 1939-1945 (Jurgen Rohwer)
www.naval_history.net

[warspite1]

October 1939 (General)

At the end of the month the Soviets and Germans hold talks in furtherance of the Nazi-Soviet pact. The Soviets, looking to expand their naval arm significantly, sought to purchase ships under construction and equipment (mainly naval guns that were previously set aside for ships to be built under Plan Z). The Soviets were keen to purchase the three Hipper-class heavy cruisers in varying stage of construction:

Prinz Eugen: The Germans refused this request, and she would go on to be commissioned in the Kriegsmarine. Prinz Eugen survived the war after an undistinguished war career.

Seydlitz: This request was refused too. She was about 90% complete when, in the summer of 1942, it was decided to complete her as a light carrier. The conversion was never finished as the following year Hitler ordered construction to cease.

Lutzow: Lutzow was the only ship the Germans agreed to transfer to the Soviets. After being towed to Leningrad she was renamed Petropavlovsk but construction work was slow and she was incomplete when the Germans launched Operation Barbarossa. Ironically she was used as a floating battery against the Germans during the siege of Leningrad. Note: the name Lutzow was used by the Kriegsmarine when the Panzerschiff Deutschland was renamed after her return to Germany in November 1939.


Seydlitz was launched as a Hipper-class heavy cruiser in January 1939. In aircraft carrier configuration she was expected to operate 10 fighters and 8 bombers.

[Jagdtiger14]

Never knew this info, thanks warspite! The Germans should have sold all three (without 20/20 hindsight).

[Capt. Harlock]

Prinz Eugen survived the war after an undistinguished war career.

Oh, I wouldn't say that -- she featured in a notable encounter in the Denmark Straight.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

Prinz Eugen survived the war after an undistinguished war career.

Oh, I wouldn't say that -- she featured in a notable encounter in the Denmark Straight.

warspite1

Well I can only speak for me and for me personally, one sortie into the Atlantic - a sortie that was called off almost immediately because of the class's notorious engine problems is not - to my mind - a distinguished war career.

You could add Cerberus to the list - but on the basis that that was a strategic retreat I am not sure I would change my view because of that.

Edit: Nice to see some debate in evidence [:)]

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

Prinz Eugen survived the war after an undistinguished war career.

Oh, I wouldn't say that -- she featured in a notable encounter in the Denmark Straight.

let's not forget this notable achievement....





She rammed the Leipzig Oct 15 1943. Heavy fog.

[warspite1]

Plus the fact that she failed to get to Norway (iirc - at all) - she was torpedoed and bombed and I don't think she made it and never left the Baltic after that....

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Plus the fact that she failed to get to Norway (iirc - at all) - she was torpedoed and bombed and I don't think she made it and never left the Baltic after that....

This has probably been said already...in hindsight the Kriegsmarine did not get their money's worth from their CAs. Their unreliable engines and short range made them ill-suited to commerce raiding.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Plus the fact that she failed to get to Norway (iirc - at all) - she was torpedoed and bombed and I don't think she made it and never left the Baltic after that....

This has probably been said already...in hindsight the Kriegsmarine did not get their money's worth from their CAs. Their unreliable engines and short range made them ill-suited to commerce raiding.

warspite1

No not covered yet - we are still on the Panzerschiffe and the voyages of the Graf Spee / Deutschland. We can look more closely into the Admiral Hipper class when we come to her breakout.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Plus the fact that she failed to get to Norway (iirc - at all) - she was torpedoed and bombed and I don't think she made it and never left the Baltic after that....

This has probably been said already...in hindsight the Kriegsmarine did not get their money's worth from their CAs. Their unreliable engines and short range made them ill-suited to commerce raiding.

warspite1

No not covered yet - we are still on the Panzerschiffe and the voyages of the Graf Spee / Deutschland. We can look more closely into the Admiral Hipper class when we come to her breakout.

Sorry about that, chief (redacts prior post).

[warspite1]

October 1939 (Baltic Sea)

The Soviet infiltration of the Baltic States continued (see Post 59). Following the signing of mutual assistance treaties on the 28th September (Estonia) Latvia (5th October) and Lithuania (10th October) and the establishment of military bases in each country, during the latter half of October the Soviets moved troops, aircraft and naval units to those bases. The cruiser Kirov was sent to Latvia and the destroyer leader Minsk, with seven submarines, was sent to Estonia.

At this time we should say something about the Soviet Navy in the Baltic. Josef Stalin had plans to greatly expand the Soviet Navy centred around the 16-inch gunned Sovyetskiy Soyuz-class battleships and the 12-inch gunned Kronshtadt-class battlecruisers. One of each class were earmarked for the Baltic Fleet and had been laid down before the war together with numerous cruisers, destroyers and submarines. Neither of the large ships were even launched by the time of the German invasion in June 1941 but a few of the smaller vessels were completed.

Pending these new vessels becoming available the Soviet Navy was reliant upon largely obsolete ships – in some cases pre WWI vintage.

In September 1939 the Soviet Baltic Fleet, commanded by Vice-Admiral Vladimir Tributz, consisted of the following ships, largely based in Kronshtadt (Leningrad).
Note:
OBB – Old Battleship
CA - Heavy Cruiser
DL – Destroyer (Flotilla Leader)
DD - Destroyer
SS - Submarine

Kronshtadt (nr Leningrad)
2 x OBB: Marat and Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya
2 x DL: Leningrad and Minsk
13 x DD: Destroyers of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Destroyer Flotillas and the Guards Division
69 x SS: Submarines of the 1st and 2nd submarine brigade.

Ust-Dvinsk (Riga)
Detachment of Light Forces (OLS)
1 x CA: Kirov
9 x DD: [1st and 2nd Divisions?]

Note: I am certain of the above names and numbers except the DD and SS. Many sources give the number of CA at two – but the Maxim Gorkiy was completed between 1939 and the German invasion in June 1941. More complete data can be obtained for the Baltic Fleet (and the rest of the Soviet Navy) in June 1941 and this information will be presented at that time.


Marat. This old battleship – the Russians first dreadnought – was launched in 1911. In her 1939 guise she featured twelve 12-inch guns but was hopelessly outclassed by the newer ships of the Kriegsmarine in all respects.


The Kirov was completed in 1938 and joined the Baltic Fleet (her sister Voroshilov was completed two years later and served with the Black Sea Fleet). These handsome ships betray their Italian design – although their final hull configuration was amended as it was felt the Italian ships were insufficiently robust. Like all ships of the Baltic Fleet, Marat and Kirov took part in the defence of Leningrad.

[Orm]

The two navies worked together and formed Hunting Groups to try and find and then destroy the raiders. Note: The make-up of the groups vary from source to source (quelle surprise) and no doubt is in part due to the make-up changing over time. I have used the following which seems to be pretty accurate as far as I can tell (with the exception of a Force Y which appears in some sources).

Do the sources mention what ships that the mysterious Force Y might have contained?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

The two navies worked together and formed Hunting Groups to try and find and then destroy the raiders. Note: The make-up of the groups vary from source to source (quelle surprise) and no doubt is in part due to the make-up changing over time. I have used the following which seems to be pretty accurate as far as I can tell (with the exception of a Force Y which appears in some sources).

Do the sources mention what ships that the mysterious Force Y might have contained?

warspite1

It's difficult to find two sources the same. An example is:

Purnells History of the Second World War. Force Y (operating off Brazil) Strasbourg and HMS Neptune.

French Cruisers 1922-1956. Force Y first mentioned in November 1939 and consists of Strasbourg, Algerie and three DCT which returned to France from Dakar!

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

October 1939 (Baltic Sea)

The Soviet infiltration of the Baltic States continued (see Post 59). Following the signing of mutual assistance treaties on the 28th September (Estonia) Latvia (5th October) and Lithuania (10th October) and the establishment of military bases in each country, during the latter half of October the Soviets moved troops, aircraft and naval units to those bases. The cruiser Kirov was sent to Latvia and the destroyer leader Minsk, with seven submarines, was sent to Estonia.

At this time we should say something about the Soviet Navy in the Baltic. Josef Stalin had plans to greatly expand the Soviet Navy centred around the 16-inch gunned Sovyetskiy Soyuz-class battleships and the 12-inch gunned Kronshtadt-class battlecruisers. One of each class were earmarked for the Baltic Fleet and had been laid down before the war together with numerous cruisers, destroyers and submarines. Neither of the large ships were even launched by the time of the German invasion in June 1941 but a few of the smaller vessels were completed.

Pending these new vessels becoming available the Soviet Navy was reliant upon largely obsolete ships – in some cases pre WWI vintage.

In September 1939 the Soviet Baltic Fleet, commanded by Vice-Admiral Vladimir Tributz, consisted of the following ships, largely based in Kronshtadt (Leningrad).
Note:
OBB – Old Battleship
CA - Heavy Cruiser
DL – Destroyer (Flotilla Leader)
DD - Destroyer
SS - Submarine

Kronshtadt
2 x OBB: Marat and Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya
1 x CA: Kirov
2 x DL: Leningrad and Minsk
21 x DD: Destroyers of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Destroyer Flotillas and the Guards Division
69 x SS: Submarines of the 1st and 2nd submarine brigade.

Note: I am certain of the above names and numbers except the DD and SS. Many sources give the number of CA at two – but the Maxim Gorkiy was completed between 1939 and the German invasion in June 1941. More complete data can be obtained for the Baltic Fleet (and the rest of the Soviet Navy) in June 1941 and this information will be presented at that time.

Marat. This old battleship – the Russians first dreadnought – was launched in 1911. In her 1939 guise she featured twelve 12-inch guns but was hopelessly outclassed by the newer ships of the Kriegsmarine in all respects.



The Kirov was completed in 1938 and joined the Baltic Fleet (her sister Voroshilov was completed two years later and served with the Black Sea Fleet). These handsome ships betray their Italian design – although their final hull configuration was amended as it was felt the Italian ships were insufficiently robust. Like all ships of the Baltic Fleet, Marat and Kirov took part in the defence of Leningrad.

Nice color shot!!!

[warspite1]

November 1939 (North Atlantic, South Atlantic and Indian Ocean- the surface raiders)

Kapitan Wenneker, having finally been given the order for Deutschland to return home (see Post 115) by Admiral Raeder, headed for Germany. She slipped through the Denmark Strait and arrived at Gotenhafen (Gdynia) on the 15th November. Her patrol had not been a successful one.

Having sailed in August just before the outbreak of war, she was forbidden to commence attacks until the 26th of September. Even then she was hampered by the limitations that Adolf Hitler had imposed on his ships, and the fact that the North Atlantic convoys were protected by major British and French surface units. Deutschland sunk just two ships totalling just over 7,000 tons and caused a diplomatic furore with the capture of the 5,000 ton US merchant City of Flint.


Deutschland was re-classified as a heavy cruiser in February 1940 along with her surviving sister, Admiral Scheer. By that time she had been re-named Lutzow too. Her next major operation would not be until Weserubung – the German invasion of Norway and Denmark – the following April; that was not to end happily for Lutzow either…. Below is a close up of her “Anton” triple 11-inch turret.



Meanwhile further south we left her sister heading for the Indian Ocean. Graf Spee struggled in the treacherous waters of the Cape of Good Hope and the crew were no doubt relieved to reach the calmer waters south of Mozambique by the first week of November. However, any such relief would have been tempered by the fact that the ocean there was seemingly empty.

Kapitan Langsdorff ordered Graf Spee northwest into the Mozambique Channel, but prey was almost as elusive here too. She managed to intercept and sink one empty coastal tanker, the 706 ton Africa Shell (Captain Dove). Langsdorff, realising that he would need to head for home early in the New Year, decided to head back into the South Atlantic. Toward the end of the month, emergency repairs and maintenance was carried out in preparation for the journey home. It had been an incredibly frustrating month for the Graf Spee’s officers and crew. Little did they realise that the Panzerschiff had less than a month to live….

An example of the Arado 196, the floatplane carried by Graf Spee. The aircraft saw plenty of use in the wide expanse of ocean sailed by the Panzershiff, but by the start of November her Arado had lost one engine and the spare was in poor shape, limiting the flying hours available.



Source:
The Price of Disobedience (Eric J Grove)

[Jagdtiger14]

The Arado 196 was a good plane. Is there any report of them sinking anything?

[warspite1]

The Arado 196 was considered a good plane for spotting and general reconnaissance duties (they continued in this role even after the surface fleet was pretty much destroyed).

The only success I can see recorded for one though is the capture of the submarine HMS Seal.

[warspite1]

Right lots of stuff starting to happen in November - some of which is inter-linked, so I need to find the best way to present this. May be a slight delay while I work that out.

In the meantime I will do an overview of the Ugly Sisters, the Town-class cruisers and the AMC's (all of which will be featuring soon).