Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Lowpe (J)

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna



I'd bet a whole lot of something that US a/c factories turned into Veh/Arm factories if taken over by Japan. Should the US then take them back, I'd bet they remain Veh/Arm even though you have no use for them. You'd have points you could never spend.

Try capturing the industry in Oz - that should tell you. There are a few a/c factories there. At Melbourne, IIRC. I actually have a game with Japan against the AI where I took Melbourne, and could tell you, but it's not on this computer.

So what would they do? Just sit there dead?

I presume so. I took an intact Mavis aircraft factory when I occupied (without attacking) an abandoned Harbin or Changchun (forget which). It never produced any Mavii for me! Not having engines probably didn't help.

I also captured some IJA vehicle and armament factories but don't know if their production increases guns and trucks in the pools. The ones in Chinese control don't seem to be giving them anything.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


I'd bet a whole lot of something that US a/c factories turned into Veh/Arm factories if taken over by Japan. Should the US then take them back, I'd bet they remain Veh/Arm even though you have no use for them. You'd have points you could never spend.

Try capturing the industry in Oz - that should tell you. There are a few a/c factories there. At Melbourne, IIRC. I actually have a game with Japan against the AI where I took Melbourne, and could tell you, but it's not on this computer.

I just tested it in San Diego.

When Japan takes the factories they do turn into Vehicle factories. When the US re-takes San Diego they turn into . . . nothing. Gone. Not aircraft factories, not Vehicle. Just gone. The industry icons end at the shipyard.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


I'd bet a whole lot of something that US a/c factories turned into Veh/Arm factories if taken over by Japan. Should the US then take them back, I'd bet they remain Veh/Arm even though you have no use for them. You'd have points you could never spend.

Try capturing the industry in Oz - that should tell you. There are a few a/c factories there. At Melbourne, IIRC. I actually have a game with Japan against the AI where I took Melbourne, and could tell you, but it's not on this computer.

I just tested it in San Diego.

When Japan takes the factories they do turn into Vehicle factories. When the US re-takes San Diego they turn into . . . nothing. Gone. Not aircraft factories, not Vehicle. Just gone. The industry icons end at the shipyard.

Well, that would've been one way for you to gain a whole crapload of Strat VPs at Utsonomiya all those months ago [X(]. Presumably if you'd taken them, they would've all been blown up.

[HansBolter]

Beginning to sound a lot like the game was never designed to accommodate a full court press against the continental US.

Since only an invasion triggers an abandonment of Europe First, the Japanese are free to strategic bomb the WC into oblivion without a "reaction" from the US.

Two AAR games examining these possibilities and some pretty good debates going regarding what the possibilities may be.

Looks a lot like the full court press some real potential to break the game.

Yes I'm sounding pessimistic.

[paullus99]

That scenarios even exist that allow the Japanese player to have even a half-way decent shot at "strategic" bombing the Continental US just shows the depths to which the fanboys have gone to turn this game into science fiction.

I'm not sure what sane Allied player would get any enjoyment at being at the receiving end of a completely unstoppable Japanese advance, backed up with enough production to make any counterattack so fraught with peril that even the best possible outcome would be a years-long slog that could be ended by a single bad throw of the dice (one carrier engagement goes bad, for example).

Sorry, but these modded scenarios have taken this game into the nether regions.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: paullus99

That scenarios even exist that allow the Japanese player to have even a half-way decent shot at "strategic" bombing the Continental US just shows the depths to which the fanboys have gone to turn this game into science fiction.

I'm not sure what sane Allied player would get any enjoyment at being at the receiving end of a completely unstoppable Japanese advance, backed up with enough production to make any counterattack so fraught with peril that even the best possible outcome would be a years-long slog that could be ended by a single bad throw of the dice (one carrier engagement goes bad, for example).

Sorry, but these modded scenarios have taken this game into the nether regions.

Strategic bombing CONUS has nothing to do with modded scenarios. You could do it in stock Scenario 1 if you wanted to. It has everything to do with the underprepared nature of the CONUS OOB and nothing to do with so-called fanboy scenarios.

And all this pearl-clutching and hand-wringing about strat bombing of CONUS ignores the strategic opportunity cost to the IJN such an operation would entail. Don't panic and think about it. You'll see.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: paullus99

That scenarios even exist that allow the Japanese player to have even a half-way decent shot at "strategic" bombing the Continental US just shows the depths to which the fanboys have gone to turn this game into science fiction.

I'm not sure what sane Allied player would get any enjoyment at being at the receiving end of a completely unstoppable Japanese advance, backed up with enough production to make any counterattack so fraught with peril that even the best possible outcome would be a years-long slog that could be ended by a single bad throw of the dice (one carrier engagement goes bad, for example).

Sorry, but these modded scenarios have taken this game into the nether regions.

Strategic bombing CONUS has nothing to do with modded scenarios. You could do it in stock Scenario 1 if you wanted to. It has everything to do with the underprepared nature of the CONUS OOB and nothing to do with so-called fanboy scenarios.

And all this pearl-clutching and hand-wringing about strat bombing of CONUS ignores the strategic opportunity cost to the IJN such an operation would entail. Don't panic and think about it. You'll see.

I'm in a second, DBB 28C, game where PH was ignored and San Diego's port was hit. Saratoga sunk at the pier. A bunch of other stuff. Manila port also hit hard; I'm down 11 subs and a bunch of the Asiatic fleet on day 3. But no BBs to fix in exchange for a carrier? BBs that work as amphib support in 1942? I dunno. Maybe OK. Many/most of the subs would have had to withdraw in time.

Once the WC is active on the 8th a KB-owner would be nuts to use it on industry. The strat VPs are minor and the US can repair anything they do in weeks. At the cost of the air wing's pilots.

Strat bombing CONUS is possible from Canada. At great opportunity cost. Using carriers on other than a first turn with surprise ON is bad play IMO.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: paullus99

That scenarios even exist that allow the Japanese player to have even a half-way decent shot at "strategic" bombing the Continental US just shows the depths to which the fanboys have gone to turn this game into science fiction.

I'm not sure what sane Allied player would get any enjoyment at being at the receiving end of a completely unstoppable Japanese advance, backed up with enough production to make any counterattack so fraught with peril that even the best possible outcome would be a years-long slog that could be ended by a single bad throw of the dice (one carrier engagement goes bad, for example).

Sorry, but these modded scenarios have taken this game into the nether regions.

Strategic bombing CONUS has nothing to do with modded scenarios. You could do it in stock Scenario 1 if you wanted to. It has everything to do with the underprepared nature of the CONUS OOB and nothing to do with so-called fanboy scenarios.

And all this pearl-clutching and hand-wringing about strat bombing of CONUS ignores the strategic opportunity cost to the IJN such an operation would entail. Don't panic and think about it. You'll see.

I'm in a second, DBB 28C, game where PH was ignored and San Diego's port was hit. Saratoga sunk at the pier. A bunch of other stuff. Manila port also hit hard; I'm down 11 subs and a bunch of the Asiatic fleet on day 3. But no BBs to fix in exchange for a carrier? BBs that work as amphib support in 1942? I dunno. Maybe OK. Many/most of the subs would have had to withdraw in time.

Once the WC is active on the 8th a KB-owner would be nuts to use it on industry. The strat VPs are minor and the US can repair anything they do in weeks. At the cost of the air wing's pilots.

Strat bombing CONUS is possible from Canada. At great opportunity cost. Using carriers on other than a first turn with surprise ON is bad play IMO.

My only concern as an Allied player would be the aircraft factories getting burned down. Which is not something KB can really accomplish - you'd need LBA with bigger bomb loads to do it reliably. And if you're doing that, there's a whole lot of other stuff you aren't going to be able to do.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

My only concern as an Allied player would be the aircraft factories getting burned down. Which is not something KB can really accomplish - you'd need LBA with bigger bomb loads to do it reliably. And if you're doing that, there's a whole lot of other stuff you aren't going to be able to do.

True. Even a San Diego port strike, while it gets Sara, puts the KB far east for a long piece of the amphib bonus. Plus system damage. Plus a sub could get lucky. Hey! It could happen! (Nah.)

[JocMeister]

Steve, thanks for testing! [&o]

I´ll make double sure I have all the AC factories covered well from the ground in case Nick surprise land somewhere. But last time I checked I had an ID + RGTs covering all the big factories. As I said earlier this is not something that worries me greatly.

Losing PH actually doesn´t worry me greatly either. I think in the end even if he captures PH and sink the remaining BBs that the VP gain won´t be that great. BBs are worth less then 1000 VPs. LCUs are harder to calculate but say 2000 VPs? (65k troops). Then PH itself is worth 3000. But only the BBs + LCU are permanent. And if he looses 1000 VPs in the process (which is not unlikely considering plane, LCU and ship losses) the actual gain from a VP perspective (4:1 in 42) is actually very low. Only a net gain of 1000 VPs. Thats pretty expensive considering the fuel and supply used.

Not to mention having KB tied up around PH for a big chunk of that crucial early months. From my POV going for PH wasn´t the best thing to do. BUT it depends on Nicks next move. If he goes for Canada having PH is a necessity. But if he goes somewhere else (OZ/NZ/India) I would think the effort put into Hawaii would have been better used elsewhere.

Nick has made an excellent job though of actually capturing Hawaii. While he has hit a few mines and got some ships damaged his actual losses have been almost non existant. He got troops ashore safely and has ground down the Hawaiian air force and now firmly in control. Now all I can do is wait and see if he comes to capture the place.

Its a really refreshing start to see something new being done. [:)]

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]December 22nd 1941[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Not much to report.

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CENTPAC
------------------------
The last TF successfully leaves PH. 18 combat ships including Raleigh, Detroit and Helena sprints towards Panama and new adventures.

The 5 BBs are left with a skeleton screen of old WWI destroyers. With the Allied CAP gone the Jap bombers will come tomorrow. I just need to shoot down 150 or so to make it an even score AV wise...

Japan suffers at temporarily setback at Palmyra.

Ground combat at Palmyra (170,133)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 1790 troops, 12 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 60

Defending force 1071 troops, 15 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 7

Japanese adjusted assault: 0

Allied adjusted defense: 10

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 99 (fort level 0)

Combat modifiers
Defender: experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
346 casualties reported
Squads: 14 destroyed, 59 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 14 (3 destroyed, 11 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
7 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Assaulting units:
52nd Naval Guard Unit

Defending units:
145th USN Stn Base Force
Palmyra (Det.) Defense Battalion

KB is due West of Christmas Island.

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New Guinea
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The Chicago TF withdraws safely. Nick now has naval search up at Rabaul so no more ambushes. A shame! Said naval search also spotted my oilers outside Munda. I´m pulling them back further to the south.

MKB keeps heading NW towards Badelboab. Bombers are already stationed at Rabaul so I guess he doesn´t need MKB any longer.

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DEI
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Force Z and the Dutch cruisers finally manages to leave Japanese naval search. I think it will be very hard to sneak them close again now that Nick knows they are there. I´ll keep them around for a while longer though.

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China
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Nick accidently (I think) enters Nanyang. As I have 1100 AV in place he quickly turns the troops around. I´ve ordered a bombardment next turn to see what it is. Its clear terrain so I have a good shot at wrecking some troops depending on what it is.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]December 23rd 1941[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Not much to report again. I thin Nick is finished with his Phase 1 and is shifting around for the next onslaught. Java will be up next no doubt.

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CENTPAC
------------------------
Sweeps over an empty PH followed by some bombers. I´m going to try to have the BBs go down with guns blazing. But I think they will just revert to an escort TF and return to PH before doing anything.

Nick lands another Naval Guard unit at Palmyra. KB helps to smash the defenders and the base falls during the attack.

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DEI
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Hong Kong falls. Held out for far longer then I could ever have wished!

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Burma
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Got this a couple of turns back.

Imperial Guards Division is located at Rahaeng(58,56).

This turn they showed up outside Moulmein. They are expected!

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China
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That unit I wanted to maul left the hex before I could do something. Ah well.

That it. No screen either. [:'(]

[JocMeister]

PS, Place your bets on the Champions League final for tomorrow!!! [&o] I have 10 Euro on 3-1 Juventus but I know Barca will secure the title without too much hassle.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

PS, Place your bets on the Champions League final for tomorrow!!! [&o] I have 10 Euro on 3-1 Juventus but I know Barca will secure the title without too much hassle.

Definitely out watching in a pub with friends! I'm torn between wanting Juventus to win and wanting to see amazing Messi goals. [&:]

No gambling here. You'e probably going to lose some money Jocke. [:)]

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

PS, Place your bets on the Champions League final for tomorrow!!! [&o] I have 10 Euro on 3-1 Juventus but I know Barca will secure the title without too much hassle.

Definitely out watching in a pub with friends! I'm torn between wanting Juventus to win and wanting to see amazing Messi goals. [&:]

No gambling here. You'e probably going to lose some money Jocke. [:)]

A calculated risk. Sounds like he stands to win 30 euro in a matchup that may be closer to 1-1 than 3-1?

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

PS, Place your bets on the Champions League final for tomorrow!!! [&o] I have 10 Euro on 3-1 Juventus but I know Barca will secure the title without too much hassle.

Definitely out watching in a pub with friends! I'm torn between wanting Juventus to win and wanting to see amazing Messi goals. [&:]

No gambling here. You'e probably going to lose some money Jocke. [:)]

A calculated risk. Sounds like he stands to win 30 euro in a matchup that may be closer to 1-1 than 3-1?

No point in putting any money on Barca unless you plan to bet A LOT of money. Odds are low. 3-1 on Juve gives 30 times the money. Same result with Barca as the winner is 5.5 times the money.

I don´t expect to win any money though. [:D]

[Encircled]

Chellini is out injured, which is a massive loss for Juve.

2-0 Barca, with two goals by Suarez

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]December 24th-25th 1941[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

More depressing events.

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CENTPAC
------------------------
My little Bombardment at Lahaina misfired. I didn´t expect it to work but after running into some Jap MTBs without the BBs revering to escort TF my hopes started rising...and then...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Lahaina at 182,108

That is the actual combat report. They probably reverted to "escort" right after encountering the MTBs. Ah well. All three BBs are of course sunk right after this. (No need to say "told you not to do that" Steve! [:D])

Jap secure Christmas Island. First time I lost that one too!

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DEI
------------------------
Some Nells find the Houston TF at Soerebaja. Since I´ve lost track of MKB some turns ago its time to pull out now. Jap search is now to well established that I won´t get any more chances of an ambush.

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Burma
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IGD is definitively on the move towards Burma.

Imperial Guards Division is located at 57,56.

Have to be very careful here. I don´t want to leave Rangoon yet as I just dumped 55k worth of supply. I´m having real troubles getting it to leave Rangoon though. I´ll try sending out some of the BFs currently in Rangoon towards China and see if that will help pull some supply out.

This is the 3rd game I try to pull supply from Rangoon into China and the 3rd time I failed. [:@]

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China
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Things are heating up here. Jap Paratroops took Ankang. Before you scold me I did try to airlift troops there but the only unit I was allowed to airlift was China command. I´m better prepared to deal with this now though. Bombers will try and close the AF tomorrow and the AVG will LRCAP the base. Hopefully that will prevent anything being flown in. Troops are not too far out.

I also may have messed up Nanyang. 8 Jap units are spotted moving for the hex. I should have pulled back to better defensive terrain earlier but wanted to try and keep the road open for some stragglers. I may pay a hefty price for that...

Here is a screen.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Chellini is out injured, which is a massive loss for Juve.

2-0 Barca, with two goals by Suarez

Hah! I told Olorin the same thing but 2 goals by Messi. [:)] Will be a helluva game whatever the score I´m sure. Leaving for a friends house now. Time for a hearty breakfast in golden liquid form! [:D]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Chellini is out injured, which is a massive loss for Juve.

2-0 Barca, with two goals by Suarez

Would have liked to see a Chellini-Suarez rematch!! Too bad. [:(]