SCALE

[kipanderson]

Hi,

My take is that Waterloo and the series generally are as Grognard as any wargame. Grognard is of course in the eye of the beholder . As with many here I have tried lots, and as with many here also, have learnt to “assume..” a new wargame will be disappointment.

But this series is very much the real deal in my view. Am very optimistic, indeed certain, that someone will do a mod that allows true 1 : 1 scaling in all ways. But accept it will only be able to run small clashes on the design spec machines for this game.

Too wish the entire battle would run in true 1 : 1. But given that it will not on must machines, think the compromises spot on.

Hope there will be an ever growing number of Napoleonic games in this series. Bet there will be .

Congratulations..
All the best,
Kip.

[Phoenix100]

I will certainly buy it the moment I see that there is a mod doing a true 1:1 scale (in every sense, as you say, Kip). Would love that. I couldn't care less about it being the entire battle. The entire battle - as everyone knows - breaks down nicely into (at the very least) three parts. 1:1 Hougoumont, for example. Would that not be doable? With an accurate number of sprites, with Hougoumont scaled properly on the map, with all the trees and hedges and buildings scaled properly and the sprites done life size instead of large. Definitely, when that mod comes out I will buy the entire game for that mod. Because, I certainly agree that it looks unlikely that (courageous one man show as it is) Histwar will reach a bug-free, playable, AI working as intended level of 1:1 play anytime soon.

I'm hung up on realism, not 3D. So at the moment I think 2D versions can simulate things more realistically. But that mod, Kip, that will swing it for me. No doubt about that.

Peter

[Tim1966]

Hi Phoenix - you pretty much got it on the scale. It took me sometime to get my head around it to. It basically making sure the units fill the area they would if they were 1:1 and don't have big gaps in the ranks. Table toppers do a similar thing. It's all about getting it look good and run well.

[Michael T]

I'm hung up on realism, not 3D. So at the moment I think 2D versions can simulate things more realistically. But that mod, Kip, that will swing it for me. No doubt about that.

I agree with this sentiment. Like Peter, JTS Nappy games are still my preference.

For me, this game or a mod will need to be 1:1:1 for topo/troops/structures, anything else I just won't accept in a 3D world. So I will stick to my 2D versions for now.

Good luck with the game chaps, I will keep an eye on how things develop in the future.

[thewood1]

I didn't know JTS nap games had 1:1 scaling. They don't even show individual buildings do they?

[Michael T]

JTS Nappy games are traditional 2D hex and counter wargames. It's a totally different experinece, more like a boardgame ported to a PC.

It's just my prefence. For a realtime 3D game I want the scales of each element to be relative at 1:1. I don't admonish others for enjoying SOW as is. But for me, to transend from traditional 2D UGOIGO wargames to 3D realtime games there are a number of *must haves*, realistic map and grahpics being one of them, amongst others. ATM SOW graphics are not realistic enough for my taste. I have no idea how the game handles the other important things like moving units and combat. But if I look at the screen and am not convinced it looks right then I don't go any further.

[thewood1]

But holy crap...how can you play a turn-based game that has buildings only represented by clumps and whole regiments as one unit and then admonish a game that only does 4:1 on individual soldiers. There is a major disconnect there.

[Squid]

I just thought I would chime in regarding this scale issue. I get it that it would be amazing to play on a true 1:1 scale (I would love to as well). But its been eloquently explained, there are reasons as to why the engine currently does not support this. I've played the JTS games ad nauseum and they are good, but I always feel I am playing a hex based wargame (mainly because I am [;)]). Where SOW Waterloo excels is immersion. Ok I know that as far as mancount goes those units should be bigger, but there is a gestalt effect, wherein the sum of what is going on in the game creates a wider realism than can't be described by simple stats such as sprite ratio. Numerous times in the SOW Civil war games the AI has provided me with a war story I will happily regale to non players due to its realism and entertainment value.

If you are interested in recreating the Napoleonic battles on your PC, then I really do believe you cant do better than this game. It has a tabletop feel of authenticity, Total War style eye candy and a huge amount of depth in the ai and the tactical (Napoleonic) problems it throws at you. Yes it would be more epic to see that in 1:1 but I wouldn't do without the experience as is for one second at 1.6. For those on the fence I would recommend downloading the free demo of Gettysburg (even if ACW isn't your thing). Despite the engine being the poor relation to Waterloo (this is a huge improvement), hopefully it will impart some of the reasons why this franchise is so good that can be hard to get across without simply seeing how it does things.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Johnnie

Enough about scale already. Does anyone really need a one to one representation of Waterloo? Would not that be a bit unwieldy? Should not some abstraction be acceptable. After all the Civil War SOW's work fine. This is, after all, a wargame. I suspect that neither Napoleon nor Wellington had laptops at the battle, with which they could view any portion of the field immediately. But that will not stop me from enjoying the game.

I agree. If I want 1:1 scale, well, that's why I have all those flight sims/first person shooters.

I look at this as table top miniature wargaming in real time.

Imagine if they ever did SOW: Battle of Nations. 1:1 scale would probably require a quantum computer.

[Destraex]

Most FPS or flight Sims I play are not capable of 1:1 representations of proper units.
Some flight Sims can handle realistic numbers but they are rare. Take bomber formations in the battle of Britain. There is only one sim I know of that does realistic bomber numbers.
As for FPS games I don't know of any that do Napoleonic warfare with 1:1 unit scale for battles. Max 64-100 players is the best I have seen, not thousands.

Can you please advise the FPS you are playing?
You have my attention.

p.s. If I wanted tabletop numbers I would play tabletop. Less stress on the eyes. Instead I want what computers bring. Which could be 1:1 with different design and scenario decisions.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Destraex

Most FPS or flight Sims I play are not capable of 1:1 representations of proper units.
Some flight Sims can handle realistic numbers but they are rare. Take bomber formations in the battle of Britain. There is only one sim I know of that does realistic bomber numbers.
As for FPS games I don't know of any that do Napoleonic warfare with 1:1 unit scale for battles. Max 64-100 players is the best I have seen, not thousands.

Can you please advise the FPS you are playing?
You have my attention.

p.s. If I wanted tabletop numbers I would play tabletop. Less stress on the eyes. Instead I want what computers bring. Which could be 1:1 with different design and scenario decisions.

You mean like Rowan's Battle of Britain with hundreds of bombers in the air?

What FPS is *not* 1:1 scale?

[BigDuke66]

As for scale, I wasn't so much worried about the 1:4 but rather about the "adjustments" that were made to let it look acceptable.
If 1 soldier stand for 4 or even more and is said to be 8-10ft tall then I doubt a unit takes up the space on the map that the real unit would have taken up, and it's this distortion of scale that I'm worried about, it simply looks strange in all the videos.
If everything would have simply been 1:4 that would likely not have been the case at least I doubt they would have been moonwalking all the time.


As a lot people mentioned the excellent Napoleonic games of HPS/JTS I recommend to take a look at this club:
http://www.wargame.ch/wc/nwc/Napann1.htm
And especially at the forum:
http://wargame.ch/board/nwc/index.php
A lot of the design crew(lead designers, map & scenario makers, testers, etc.) of the Napoleonic series hang around there.

[Pawsy]

1:1 scale is now my scale of choice makes it seem a lot more realistic and units occupy a better frontage

[vincere]

I tried 1 scale last night. Looked so much more epic. So I'm willing to trade graphics level for this.

Is there any major downside??? Frontages still work ok? I'm guessing towns will be more of a pain.

[jomni]

I have tried default and 1:3. Will try 1:1 next. My only concern is the lines crisscrossing.

[vincere]

ORIGINAL: jomni

I have tried default and 1:3. Will try 1:1 next. My only concern is the lines crisscrossing.

I've been trying to use Divisions for advance to contact.

Then just before contact brigades as the basic manoeuvre size. Still had crossing lines for 0 (1:6) setting that needs micro managing sometimes.

At the moment I'm going to see how it gets on setting 1.

[Destraex]

@Aurelian
Almost all fps combat does not represent scale larger than a tincy tiny skirmish is what I meant. They do not represent BATTLES they are set in 1:1. Be resonable. fps shooters are not a replacement for battle simulators. Would you really never play an rts happy that fps is doing 1:1 for you? You are comparing apples and oranges.

[Destraex]

Double post.

[Destraex]

Triple post

[JamesLxx]

I've had an idea on how to reproduce a 1 to 1 scale without breaking the sprite limit. I don't know if its been tried before or if its practical but here goes:

- A sprite is a single animated entity...at the moment it depicts a single figure 12ft high in relation to the land.

- But what if a single sprite depicted a group of 4 men at correct scale to the land?

- If the sprite scale was then set to 4 to 1 then each sprite illustrating 4 men would visually reproduce every man of a unit.

- At 200 sprites per unit max you would see up to 800 men per unit which covers most regiments.

- The buildings could then be scaled down to correct dimensions as they don't need to match the 12ft size single sprites.

- A correct frontage could also be found with the 4 man sprite.

I wonder if sprites be modded in this way?