L'ordre mixte

[jardail]

Seems to be missing from this tactical simulator. As is the melee column. Any chance these will be added later?

[e_barkmann]

I expect a lot of mods will happen once the SDK has been released. Did the French use these formations at Waterloo? Thought they mainly used column by divisions

[Champagne]

ORIGINAL: Leatherneck_MT

Seems to be missing from this tactical simulator. As is the melee column. Any chance these will be added later?

You can manually put your brigade in ordre mixte, if you wish. As for "melee column" the game simulates attack column of divisions, but not the closed column attack column, that's true.

As most know, ordre mixte is simply placing the flanking battalions in attack column and the two or three center battalions in line formation.

[jardail]

Yeah, I was really hoping tho that there would be a "command" that could order the battalion to adopt that formation with a 4th battalion if it existed, out front in skirmish order and if there was a 5th, back in reserve. That would have been cool to see. As it is, I finally have been able to get a visual as to why it was so difficult for the French to take Hougomont. Now it makes sense. Norbsoft did a good job on this game. Thanks for the response gents.

[jardail]

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

I expect a lot of mods will happen once the SDK has been released. Did the French use these formations at Waterloo? Thought they mainly used column by divisions

Come to think of it, I'm not sure if they used that formation at waterloo or not. It was a difficult formation to keep, so with the french army not being "Le' Grande Armee" that it had been in the past, they probably didn't. It would still be neat to see it tho

[Jim_NSD]

We built the formation but it became rather complex trying to figure out when the AI should and should not use the formation. A bit surprised Reb did not include it in the Grog toolbar at the division level. It would be for the player only though.

-Jim

[Champagne]

I'm trying to imagine how useful an ordre mixte formation button on the toolbar would be and I'm having difficulty imagining that it would be very useful.

Can anybody refer us to Napoleonic battle in which ordre mixte played a significant role? When a division in Napoleon's army was maneuvering on the battlefield, closed ranks close order attack column was used. When they got into solid shot arty range, they would maneuver in the more open order attack column by divisions.

Once the troops came under musket fire, the officers had to work very hard to maintain any kind of attack column formation because the natural tendency of a battalion under heavy musket fire was to stop and deploy into line.

[jardail]

Actually Champagne, the formation was quite unique and very powerful as it gave the division an advantage over the regular armies of Europe (not including the British who already had a very effective way of dealing with French Shock Columns). It gave the regiment/division the firepower of the line just before the charge by the 2 shock columns. It was an extremely effective infantry formation. One of Napoleon's own creation I believe. I first heard of it in an outstanding book I read called Napoleon's Campaigns. It's not a small work by any stretch of the imagination. But the Author, a one David Chandler, did an excellent job of it. If you haven't read it, I encourage you to.

[jardail]

ORIGINAL: Jim_NSD

We built the formation but it became rather complex trying to figure out when the AI should and should not use the formation. A bit surprised Reb did not include it in the Grog toolbar at the division level. It would be for the player only though.

-Jim

Would love to see this eventually implemented. If not for waterloo, then maybe for some of the earlier campaigns. I'm sure they will be coming down the pipe.

[Champagne]

The game, the question that I raise is whether it is necessary for it to be implemented in the game, or whether NorbSoft's time might be better spent elsewhere.

WRT Waterloo, a more prominent role was played by artillery crews hiding in infantry squares. If at all possible, this should really be in the game.

WRT ordre mixte, I don't believe that formation was used at any point at Waterloo. If somebody can correct me please do.

My very uneducated guess is that it won't be tough to add a button on the toolbar that would place a French Brigade or Division in ordre mixte, but, that can wait for a future Nappy game featuring an earlier battle.

Lthneck: Chandler's Campaigns of Napoleon is a great book and I love that book. I've read it more than once.

The ordre mixte formation is praised in Chandler's book, as you say, but, I can't recall any individual battle in which the formation played a critical role in the victory. Chandler doesn't mention the formation's role in any battle.

[BloodyBill76]

According to the book "Imperial bayonets" L'ordre Mixte was used a lot during the Italian campaigns. As the years wore on and French manpower needs created a lot of conscripted troops the ordre mixte was used in a looser way with the two battalions forming column on the flanks and a loose mass order of skirmishers to its front center. According to Jomini L'ordre mixte took to much training to be used by the majority of the troops in battle.

On formations I would like to note that according to Carl Von Clauswitze book "Military instruction for my Imperial highness" Prussia and most Germanic states of the time preferred the closed square with the companies forming a solid outward block instead of the hollow square as the solid block was easier and faster to train recruits at. The formation had less firepower and was a cannon ball catcher but it helped lower morale troops stay in the fight.

[jardail]

ORIGINAL: Champagne


The game, the question that I raise is whether it is necessary for it to be implemented in the game, or whether NorbSoft's time might be better spent elsewhere.

WRT Waterloo, a more prominent role was played by artillery crews hiding in infantry squares. If at all possible, this should really be in the game.

WRT ordre mixte, I don't believe that formation was used at any point at Waterloo. If somebody can correct me please do.

My very uneducated guess is that it won't be tough to add a button on the toolbar that would place a French Brigade or Division in ordre mixte, but, that can wait for a future Nappy game featuring an earlier battle.

Lthneck: Chandler's Campaigns of Napoleon is a great book and I love that book. I've read it more than once.

The ordre mixte formation is praised in Chandler's book, as you say, but, I can't recall any individual battle in which the formation played a critical role in the victory. Chandler doesn't mention the formation's role in any battle.

I'm not in any way arguing your point. I do also understand that their time could be better spent elsewhere. But since there is no "suggestion" forum (at least not one that I see), I took the liberty of posting it where I did. That being said. I did find a little bit of information on this, but since none of us was there during the French Revolution or during the days of the French Empire, all we can go on is what someone else has written or said. Thus, this little item I gleaned from another book, the Battle of Waterloo by Jeremy Black.

"In the peninsula, again reflecting a deterioration that was to be seen at Waterloo, the French employed inadequate battlefield tactics.

In place of l'ordre mixte, the interplay of lines, columns, and skirmishers that had proved so effective in the 1790's, especially in weakening lines of opposing infantry, they relied on crude attacks in dense columns.

Thus the firepower of the British lines were not compromised, the French themselves provided an easy target for the British.

The decline in quality of the French army, due to nearly continuous campaigning, affected it's tactical sophistication, not to mention it's morale."

I agree that the formation itself would be difficult at the very best, for untrained troops to form and maintain (not to mention an AI in a game).

But it was a part of that period of history, and I think it would be nice to see it EVENTUALLY.

On your point about artillery crews hiding in squares during a cav charge, I agree, that IS something that should be in this particular game because it is relevant to the outcome of the survival of British gunners (at least) and did happen on the day of battle. It wasn't a british tactic so much as a common sense one, probably created by scared arty crews who had the choice of running to join their brothers in arms in the huge p-r-i-c-k-l-y block of infantry to escape the large fast moving scary line of man eating cavalry or being turned into hoof grease. (some of these censored words are absolutely silly)

[jomni]

Not really about the specific formation of L'ordre mixte, but it would be really nice if the game would have more elaborate Division and Corps formations and the AI that comes with it. This includes specifying the frontage and assigning reserve units. Flaws and all, this is something that Histwar did right. At the current state, a lot of TC-ing and micromanagement is needed.

[jardail]

ORIGINAL: jomni

Not really about the specific formation of L'ordre mixte, but it would be really nice if the game would have more elaborate Division and Corps formations and the AI that comes with it. This includes specifying the frontage and assigning reserve units. Flaws and all, this is something that Histwar did right. At the current state, a lot of TC-ing and micromanagement is needed.

Have to agree there too.

[Pawsy]

I noticed a big change in the game when I set the sprite 1.1 formations occupy a more realistic frontage