HJ (SHC) vs Pelton T1-T4 Soviet pics

[Huw Jones]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Yes, and from what I saw on the T4 pics the north and center looked ok but I couldn't see the Dnepr defense near Mogilev. Now if it hadn't changed from the T3 pics, then not so good. You need a secondary line behind the Pronya at least or you are vulnerable to a breakthrough there.

No just one line, there, no change, I don't have any units spare, plus its lower down my priority list.

First priority is where I see the main Arm units.

Then start on the 2nd line on Smolensk and 3rd line to the river East of Smolensk, then maybe the odd unit where you say.

Only spare units were fortress which I build this turn with the extra admin points coming on with the Reserve front, after I start on the Finnish border line and around Leningrad.

I build a number of fortresses in Cities first, to help protect them and hopefully be part of a defense line later on, but further back as they will need time to be built.

[Huw Jones]

ORIGINAL: mattp

A second line behind the Pronya on T4 with the panzer ball around Pskov and AGC panzers NW of Vitebsk? Total waste of units/strength IMHO. Just enough CV on the Dnepr to make it too painful for the Germans to cross, anything extra needs to be north.

I think the pocket GHC has formed sw of Kiev isn't a bad thing. In the grand scheme of things the GHC are going to get their pockets and in this case this particular pocket has taken the GHC further away from where it needs to go (under normal circumstances) towards D-Town. The lack of fortified hexes on east side of Dnepr between Kiev and Cherkassy is a concern, but assuming SHC has enough strength there to deter GHC from trying to cross there T5, the pocket gives him more time to prep defenses along the Dnepr and get more industry out before the GHC swing to the SE. Will be interested to see T-5 German moves.

I think SHC is giving up too much ground too easily by Pskov/Lenningrad and personally I wouldn't have the setup SHC has there. Delaying setups in the south are good/necessary, but in the north you only have so many hexes before you run out of space. So for me, this is fighting terrain, not delaying terrain. Very interested to see what GHC does next turn, make a deep penetration northwards or go for the easy encirclement. You certainly are putting him in the position to make difficult decisions which is good as the more decisions he has to make the more likely he'll eventually make a wrong decision.

This is a really interesting game and I'm looking forward to continued reports. Would be good if Pelton started his own thread from the German side.

I agree with your first two points, in the north, I am worried about to many units getting pocketed, with the amount of Arm Pelton has around Pskov, so pulling back to the Luga.

[Huw Jones]

At the end of turn 5, I kept looking at the map, because I thought I had forget something, but couldn’t find what I had forgot. Hit end of turn, then released screen shots, dam, sorry about that but I expect Pelton will have them when he does his AAR.

T5 North

Pelton attacked the river East of Pskov breaching it with 1 Arm stack, I can see other Arm resting around Pskov.

I pull my units there back Eastwards, none cut off.

T5 Vistebsk

It looks like approx half the Arm in the North have moved directly South, linking up with the Arm already there, the forward units ending next to Vitebsk. Cutting off several para brigades and about 5 divisions.

Eastwards I pull back slightly, Vitebsk river I don’t pull back, just readjust my lines.

Reinforcements directed to the area, to speed up the rear defenses, only a few actually arriving this turn.

Some reinforcements that are only about 7-8K strong can reach South of Mogilev, I pull out the good divisions, moving them North to assist around Vitebsk.

It will be easy for Peltons inf to breach the Denepr river line, but no Arm around presently to exploit.

I have spare units that might not be required now in the North, but will wait a turn, to see what the Arm in the area does.

T5 South

The Arm continue in the direction on D-town, cutting off Kirovogrod with a 1HI in it.

[MattFL]

I can comment here as We are far ahead of the current posts/ turn.

Good to hear, I hope another update comes soon.

The German player can only take what we are given.

Oh I absolutely agree and it's enjoyable to watch GHC go for Lenningrad in the face of a determined Soviet defense. I don't know what SHC is planning here, if he is just delaying you and conceding Lenningrad or if he will fight to death to try to keep it. If it's the latter, it may already be too late.... A few more AAR posts and we'll see...

[Huw Jones]

Oh I absolutely agree and it's enjoyable to watch GHC go for Lenningrad in the face of a determined Soviet defense. I don't know what SHC is planning here, if he is just delaying you and conceding Lenningrad or if he will fight to death to try to keep it. If it's the latter, it may already be too late.... A few more AAR posts and we'll see...

The plan is just go with the flow really, the terrain is good to inflict heavy casualties. The Germans can push through and cut the rail lines after a while, but actually cutting the ports is much more harder and costly, unless the Arm can break through of course.

[Peltonx]

Turn 6 GHC Armaments: 90,000 Manpower: 31,000 VP: 165

Russian Units Destroyed after November 1st 1941
Corp:
Divisions:
Brigades:
SU:
AP total:
Stavka OOB: 4,089,000 + 25,000
GHC OOB:
Units in a Pocket: 21

AGN way to much in north.

[Peltonx]

AGC not enough in center.

[Peltonx]

AGS way to much north east side of river.

[Peltonx]

Turn 7 GHC Armaments: 90,000 Manpower: 31,000 VP: 170

Russian Units Destroyed after November 1st 1941
Corp:
Divisions:
Brigades:
SU:
AP total:
Stavka OOB: 4,112,000 + 23,000
GHC OOB:
Units in a Pocket: 1

AGN pushes forward. Only 4 panzers in area now. AGN simply has to keep all these units tied up for a few turns as AGC+AGS have broken through enemy lines. Stavka will be forced to pull troops from the north and south or lose Moscow.

[Peltonx]

AGC has all its panzers plus 3 from AGN. The pressure is on.

[Peltonx]

AGS punches a 30 mile wide hole in the river line and crosses in force, 1 HQBU is done.

[chaos45]

ouch ya I can see his mistake once u broke the landbridge on T6 he stuck around for T7 now your armor will be faster than his infantry to the N/S of the bridge can retreat. Spells doom for most of his center or at least using any of those troops to get in front of moscow any time soon. Terrain is the only thing that will slow and maybe stop an attack or two from panzers in 1941 trying to hold in the clear is virtually pointless which is why the south is such a horrendous meat grinder of soviet units while u try to get the industry out.....

[Peltonx]

This is a big change in strategy for me I wanted to try out.

As everyone can see I have moved 3 panzers from AGN to center and 3 of the 6 I had committed to the south on turn 1 back to center.

I believe the new set-up I have with 18th and 4th PG is enough to take Leningrad and the thrust in center is much more powerfull.
I also a few turns latter complete 2 Corp from 16th Army (8 infantry divisions) to the attack in the center + all new arriving
units.

Don't think Huw had any more pictures so I will wait for him to respond before Posting another turn.

[chaos45]

ya he took a slightly different approach than i did for the initial defense of leningrad doesnt look like any more or less units just different initial positioning which I feel might be alittle less efficient to a long fight. In our game your early hop over dnepr forced me to deploy alot of extra forces there but you were also all in, in the south heavier than in this game. For probably 2 turns pretty much all my reinforcements pored into the south to get me a strong enough checkerboard to get a decent chunk of industry out and I sent almost nothing extra to the landbridge/leningrad. One of the reasons why once u broke my initial line on the bridge I moved to almost a completely elastic defense trying to do just enough to slow you and preserve my armies in front of moscow as a force in being.

[MattFL]

Wow those are serious breakthroughs. At least not too many units are ZOC Locked (4-5 hexes in Center). Not good for SHC, but not catastrophic either I don't think as SHC is resilient. Am curious to see his next moves.

Chaos is right, definitely 1 too many turns in the land bridge. I still think he gave up ground too easily in the north and could have made you fight your way through the woods SW of the Luga. Where you are now, it's end July and if you advance only 1 hex per turn you'll be at the gates of Lenningrad end September pretty much sealing it's fate. Further, it's a static fight now which frees up your mobile units to shift to AGC as you've done. I can't see the CV's in the screenshots, but the lack of a 2nd row of forts up there isn't good.

One thing I'm noticing is how efficient you are with managing the lines where you're not fighting while you're on the offensive. Really good economy of force with mostly 1 hex and sometimes 2 hex spacing allowing more infantry divisions to take part in opening the holes for the armored breakthroughs. I also notice that your breakthroughs tend to be wide and flip maximum hexes at the tip of the breakthrough. Seems a lot of Germans breakthrough too narrow and it's easy to choke it off and force them to slug it out a few turns. These breakthroughs are definitive and aren't really open to counterattack.

Looking forward to next turns to see how well he recovers from what must have been a demoralizing download. As SHC it's always nerve wracking to open the files around this part of the war to see what evil has befallen you...... [:)]

[Peltonx]

I moved almost all the pioneers, hvy guns and best commanders into 3 Corp.

I can plow through hvy defended hexes easly.

So in future games after turn 4 or 5 in north I can move panzers and Infantry to center and 3 or 4 panzers from south north around turn 7-8.

I will be able to put strong pressure on Leningrad and in the south not all the panzers I have down there are needed once across the river. Unless the guy is handing me all the industry sure I will take it.

In past games I was always just a few turns short of Moscow, but with this set up I will have far more MP's and CV

[HITMAN202]

My initial observation that Huw Jones put his AGC landbridge defensive line too far forward is correct. Setting the initial d-line behind the river line immediately east of Smolensk seems best as 1)better terrain 2) more time to solidify, and 3)further from slowly advancing railhead.

[chaos45]

Hitman disagree personally he just didnt run once Pelton broke thru if he had run on T6 instead of sticking tight he could have done a gradual retreat by holding firm now the panzers will out distance his ability to retreat.

You want a forward line at Vitebsk to buy time and if its solid enough the germans have to wait for infantry once they break it and most likely pocket a few divisions u drop back to smolensk with woods to the north and minor river to anchor the south....with a back up line on the river east of smolensk....then next turn drop back to that line....then after that drop back on the swamps....then set to hold firm in the woods in front of moscow as your last ditch. Thats my take on defending the front of moscow and at the same time you cant let the north and south of there fall to fast or the germans can flank moscow...the terrain to the north is nice as it slows German movement the south not so great.

If/when WiTE2 comes out and every -1% of supply/ammo affects CV I think you will see the Soviets able to stop/slow the quick moving german units more easily. Right now were only under 50% matters its not an issue fuel is really the only thing that matters to the germans. All in all with HQBU the Germans can do better than historically period. The slight nerf in .05 may be really all thats needed to get it to complete historical.

The germans were stopped by both casualties and logistics something the game still struggles to replicate but its getting close.

[MattFL]

I agree with Chaos on this, HJ had the correct line as shown in his T-4 screen shot. But as soon as that line got infiltrated per Pelton's T-6 screenshot it was time to withdraw the troops in the land bridge to the thinner branch of the Dnepr south and east of smolensk. If he had done that and used a delaying screen, he would now have some forts on the Dnepr south/east of smolensk and could continue to hold the Dnepr for another turn, maybe 2, before withdrawing the entire front eastwards.

As it is though, its a moot point as events in the south are pretty much forcing him to quit the Dnepr.

Would be curious to see the SHC Turn 6 setup in this area to see what HJ did at the time...

[Huw Jones]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

ouch ya I can see his mistake once u broke the landbridge on T6 he stuck around for T7 now your armor will be faster than his infantry to the N/S of the bridge can retreat. Spells doom for most of his center or at least using any of those troops to get in front of moscow any time soon. Terrain is the only thing that will slow and maybe stop an attack or two from panzers in 1941 trying to hold in the clear is virtually pointless which is why the south is such a horrendous meat grinder of soviet units while u try to get the industry out.....

Was expecting the Arm in the North to move south the Vitebsk, North, East, or possibly across the marsh to the South East.

Threw me out as the second and third line were not ready behind Vitebsk, was just starting on them T5.