Apple apparently removing any war games with Confederate flag.

[philabos]

Does anyone want to guess how much of the games bearing the stars and bars is of Apple's 729 billion dollar value?
They get a news story out of it that to them is worth much more.
As I am writing this our local public radio station just proudly announced Quinn flag co has announced they will no longer make Confederate flags.
The story admitted most of the buyers were reenactors. But Quinn flag just got a news story too.

[Chijohnaok2]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager




I live in the American south. I am quite happy with the outcome of the war
And I am saying that as a white middle class male as well.


And yes I agree that winners write history.

But the Confederate flag does still carry a lot of the history of slavery with it.
The stars and stripes carries a lot with it too thanks to recent events in the middle east. But in the UK I guess most don't see it as offensive. But I don't think it is that prominent either. It flies over the American embassy and I would guess that is about it.

But the flag is still a symbol of a nation that broke away for many reasons and one of those would be the right to own other human beings. And that nation lost.
I just don't get the sense of having it on state flags or over state capitols.


But really, I don't get too hung up about flags or nationhood to begin with.

It does not bother me when I see the Mexican flag on someones cars.
I don't get upset when the American flag is burnt.




I don't have an issue with flags in historical settings.
But I don't really see why the Confederate flag is still being used in some official capacities.

But I am able to separate the two That is part of being human is being able to decide when two things are the same but not equal.

warspite1

You're kidding me right? [:)] The US Flag is everywhere (not surprising given the status of the US). You are right that it is not offensive - seriously NO ONE in the UK gives two hoots about 1776. It happened. There you go.

I'll butt out now as I am really keen to hear American views on this interesting subject.

After the Charleston shooting, the state and US flag flew at half staff while that other flag continued to fly at full staff.

I can't speak for others, but that just struck me as wrong. Especially when you consider the pictures that emerged of the shooter buring an American flag along with several of him with the Confederate flag.

The "other" flag is padlocked in its current position.



https://mgtvkron.files.wordpress.com/20 ... .jpg?w=650


[Apologies if anyone is offended at having to see it. Please avert your eyes in that case.]

[Alchenar]

So the thing about the current situation with the Confederate Battle Flag is that it's not actually a direct holdover from the civil war - the reason it's up there next to so many state buildings in the South is because State legislatures put it there in protest of the Civil Rights legislation of the 60's. It exists in its present political context as a defiant statement of intention to be racist and that's why it needs to go from there.

As with regards to games - I think perhaps we let developers get off a little bit too lightly on the 'it's just historical' line. There's plenty of other things we happily omit from wargames despite being historical and relevant because they are unappealing - for example in War in the East you aren't required to move Einsatzgruppen around the map despite it being something that happened and consumed resources from the German war effort on the same scale as other things the game requires you to manage.

I don't thing Ultimate General! needs to change anything or uses the flag in a disrespectful way, but I think there's more nuance to the issue than we like to pretend.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

You're kidding me right? [:)] The US Flag is everywhere (not surprising given the status of the US). You are right that it is not offensive - seriously NO ONE in the UK gives two hoots about 1776. It happened. There you go.

I'll butt out now as I am really keen to hear American views on this interesting subject.

After the Charleston shooting, the state and US flag flew at half staff while that other flag continued to fly at full staff.

I can't speak for others, but that just struck me as wrong. Especially when you consider the pictures that emerged of the shooter buring an American flag along with several of him with the Confederate flag.

The "other" flag is padlocked in its current position.



https://mgtvkron.files.wordpress.com/20 ... .jpg?w=650


[Apologies if anyone is offended at having to see it. Please avert your eyes in that case.]

Then it should of been cut down. No flag in this country can fly above the US flag.

[JWW]

It wasn't flying above the American flag. It is on a separate pole on the capitol grounds. The South Carolina legislature is going to consider removing it from the grounds based on a request from the governor after the shootings. The American flag is on the capitol dome.

[Crimguy]

Very well thought-out . . .

ORIGINAL: berto



Me too. My Apple boycott dates back to c. 1980, when I bought my much more capable Commodore 64 for ~1/5th the price of the Apple IIe. Been an Apple hater ever since.

[Anthropoid]

Draft letter to the firms that are self-censoring. The only reasonable thing to do . . . Feel free to copy-paste it and use it at your will. Its a bit long-winded and rambly in its current form, but perhaps a decent kernel on which to compose a truly powerful letter. Once that is done, spread it far and wide and watch them squirm. Make it hurt where it matters to them: in their pocket book.

Dear ________(insert firm name)_____,

I am writing to you in response to a news article posted on http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStor ... g-31976447 entitled "Retailers That Have Banned Sales of the Confederate Flag"
NEW YORK — Jun 23, 2015, 5:21 PM ET.

According to this article you are among an apparently growing list of retailers who have announced that you will no longer sell items which bear imagery of the flag of the Confederate States of America, nor flags themselves.

First let me say that, I despise the Confederate States of America, which I regard as one of (if not the most) evil nation to have existed in the last 1000 years. Evil regimes like Nazi Germany brought fire and destruction to the world and provoked a World War that killed 70 to 80 million. The CSA was not nearly so successful, but the goals of that regime were not much different, with one key distinction: whereas the Nazi movement sought to eliminate all Jews and various other minority and subject peoples for various ideological and rapacious motivations, the end result was to have been a continent ruled by Nazis, populated by Nazis and devoid of anyone else. The CSA in contrast, had a vision of extending the odd racial "labor camp" model of the American deep south to as many of the Western territories as they could manage, and if successful to as large of a Middle American and Carribbean Empire as they were able to carve out (had they not been soundly defeated by the Union).

It is perhaps a matter of debate whether a devout Nazi was more or less excoriable than devout Confederate, but suffice to say, I believe it is reasonable to postulate they are on comparable levels of depravity, inhumanity, cruelty and criminality. However, from my standpoint as an American citizen and resident of the U.S. I must say that my personal loathing for the CSA exceeds that of Nazi Germany. Every day of my life and every day of all or our lives in the U.S. we still deal with the legacy of racism and hatred represented in the white supremacist dehumanization of African phenotypes which the Confederacy fought to preserve.

In sum: I am no racist, and I am certainly no supporter of the CSA or apologist for the CSA.

However, I find that your decision to "ban" as some have said products which bear imagery resembling the CSA flag is nearly as upsetting and worrisome as the original ideology that you apparently fear is promoted by such imagery. In truth, I suspect that your decision to take these actions represents little more than a calculated effort to jump on a bandwagon of political correct hysteria that is sweeping the nation, in the wake of the racial tensions, race-baiting and promotion of racial-hatred that has largely been fanned by left-wing and black supremacist entities.

In the first place, the idea that your banning of these items is actually a meaningful act is absurd. In the second place, by taking this action you have set a precedent and opened a door to potentially far more injurious breaches of free speech, education and openness. If all representations of the CSA flag are to be considered "too offensive" to risk your carrying products that bear such imagery, then what about products which may bear such imagery even though they contain no substantive support for and perhaps even criticism of the CSA and its ideals? There are many products which might fit into this category, including books, computer game, and yes even clothing, flags or memorabilia. Does an image of the Confederate flag necessarily constitute "support" for the CSA or its ideals? In banning all such representations from your product line, you have in effect stated such a policy, but the implications of such a policy are chilling to consider.

Huckleberry Finn is arguably one of the most anti-racist books in American history; nonetheless during the early 20th century it was banned from many library shelves simply because it included the derogatory form of Negro, and simpleminded reactionaries who could not be bothered to actually read and understand the book took that as sufficient sign that the book was supporting racism.

If "Django Unchained," a recent blockbuster movie set in the pre-Civil War south, and which is unquestionably anti-racist and anti-CSA were to have included in any of its advertising a small and innocuous representation of the CSA flag, that would, according to the logic of your blanket banning, constitute an unacceptable risk of promoting racism and hatred. The absurdity of your actions is that, by banning all products that bear the CSA flag, you may well be undermining both education about the period, as well as judicious commentary about the period, much less worthwhile critiques of the racism and hatred of the CSA itself.

I support your concern about not contributing to racism or hatred, but I denounce you roundly for failing to actually do anything meaningful to act on that concern. By removing all products that bear the CSA flag, you may feel you have acted conscientiously, or at least fashionable in terms of the bandwagon of self-censorship that is sweeping the nation in the wake of the Charleston Massacre. But in fact, by failing to address the real issue and assess IF any of the products that bear the CSA flag seem to be promoting racism or hatred, and instead making a blanket decision to remove any and all products from your offerings, you have acted irresponsibly and irrationally. I would ask that you and your legal staff, step back, think hard and reassess your decision to ban all products banning the CSA flag.

As long as you maintain your current policy, which I deem to be akin to censorship, and in spite of my loathing of the CSA, I will make a point of avoiding doing business with you. Moreover, I will communicate my thoughts on the matter widely and encourage others to act as they see fit.

Best Regards,
Anthropoid

[TJD]

Way to go, Steam!

[aaatoysandmore]

GOOD move. I was gonna suggest we turn it around on Apple and BOYCOTT them and their products for awhile. Course that's easy for me since I more or less have boycotted them since 1980. But, if you want to help and get involved write to them an express your feelings. I don't like any company that thinks they rule the world because of this or that not even Microsoft. Though they do have a pretty good monopoly on PC's.
To me this is an issue about a man/child with a gun, not a flag. The flag didn't make him pull the trigger and reload 5 times.

[aaatoysandmore]

So are they soon to ban all shooters and things with violence in them? I mean one thing leads to another and if we let this happen we could see the end of all things related to violence and war. Pretty soon we'll get to play barbie dolls and dress up. We've got to kick it in the bud as Barney says on Andy Griffith show. Kick it in the bud. [:D]

What about all the movies and history documentaries? They gonna ban all that also? Freidricksburg? Gettysburg? How the West was Won? I mean that flag is in a lot of things. Lots of things.

[KISSMEUFOOL!]

The most pressing item that deserves banishment more than anything else is Political Correctness.

[IronWarrior]

Instead of banning the flag, they should ban ignorant southern public school curriculum that promotes Confederate apologist and "State's Rights" revisionist history. Just as I was taught back in Virginia.

Sic Semper Tyrannis!

@replies below: I agree with you guys. I was being sincere when I say that we should tackle the issue systemically rather than symbolically, despite my use of the ironic Virginia State Motto.

[KG Erwin]

Alright, before all of you rebels get your knickers in a bind, consider this: wargames can simply offer an alternative Confederate flag (the Stars & Bars)as an option to the battle flag. Case closed.

[operating]

I'm sorry, apple is being a bully on "political correctness", it's not like we get to vote on the issue, it's a tyrannical move by a few over the many. Ok I reject the ISIL flag which represents: Murder, Human Enslavement, destruction of World Heritage sites, the list goes on: I don't see anyone taking the ISIL flag off any media sites!! So why all the hypocrisy about a confederate flag? (Especially to a war that happened 150 years ago) Sounds like the people at apple have "Fat Heads"...!!!

[Agathosdaimon]

historical wargames games should not have to be edited - they dont glorify one side over another, and i think just trying to make the flag more of a taboo would just give it more undue mystique and allure. - If a game wants to be historically accurate then it is a big matter for it to at least get the flags of the respective sides right.
things like this should not be a zero sum game - we should be intelligent enough to be able to handle seeing a flag in a game and at the same time be familiar with its origins and not at the same time be for slavery, just like playing a WW2 game as the germans doesnt mean one is for Nazism.

[operating]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Alright, before all of you rebels get your knickers in a bind, consider this: wargames can simply offer an alternative Confederate flag (the Stars & Bars)as an option to the battle flag. Case closed.

Never could stomach how West Virginia switched flags...In war-time....

[Gil R.]

As I wrote on my Facebook page earlier today when linking to this story, not until today did I fully understand the old saying, "First they came for the Etsy merchants and I did not speak up, for I was not an Etsy merchant; and then they came for the 'Dukes of Hazzard' fans and I did not speak up, for I was not a 'Dukes of Hazzard' fan; but then they came for the developers of historically-based Civil War computer games, and there was no one left to speak for me."

It's a darned good thing that WCS decided not to start programming games for the Apple Store -- we would almost certainly have started with a Civil War game.

[danlongman]

For years people have been getting all wound up around here and other places
about how "that isn't the real Confederate Flag" and "that was never the official flag"
and "that was a battle ensign" of some kind. I dunno I am Canadian.
The Swastika was used by ancient cultures around the world for ages as a sun symbol
and a good luck symbol until it was taken by the Nazis and now it is forbidden in many
countries. Stuff happens. Some pretty reprehensible people have used this symbol
lately and thus it is cast into disrepute. You don't see anybody except the same kind
of folks trying to bring to swastika out of its shameful retirement so maybe this needs a rest.
Maybe it doesn't matter if it just means Lynrd Skynrd to some people... for others it is more potent
and distasteful. It most certainly sends some powerful signals. People use it around here
and they aren't the kind of people I hang out with.

[zakblood]

when someone makes a stance, it's only if everyone else follows it we need to worry, and if that happens anyway, it will be a sad day for common sense for all of us

[Zap]

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Alright, before all of you rebels get your knickers in a bind, consider this: wargames can simply offer an alternative Confederate flag (the Stars & Bars)as an option to the battle flag. Case closed.

Well also if the game has an editor. It would allow one to put the flag back in if the designer takes it out.