HJ (SHC) vs Pelton T1-T4 Soviet pics

[Huw Jones]

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

My initial observation that Huw Jones put his AGC landbridge defensive line too far forward is correct. Setting the initial d-line behind the river line immediately east of Smolensk seems best as 1)better terrain 2) more time to solidify, and 3)further from slowly advancing railhead.

Possibly true, I was intending to start on the second and third line on T5, but things were thrown out by his South move.

[Huw Jones]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Hitman disagree personally he just didnt run once Pelton broke thru if he had run on T6 instead of sticking tight he could have done a gradual retreat by holding firm now the panzers will out distance his ability to retreat.

You want a forward line at Vitebsk to buy time and if its solid enough the germans have to wait for infantry once they break it and most likely pocket a few divisions u drop back to smolensk with woods to the north and minor river to anchor the south....with a back up line on the river east of smolensk....then next turn drop back to that line....then after that drop back on the swamps....then set to hold firm in the woods in front of moscow as your last ditch. Thats my take on defending the front of moscow and at the same time you cant let the north and south of there fall to fast or the germans can flank moscow...the terrain to the north is nice as it slows German movement the south not so great.

If/when WiTE2 comes out and every -1% of supply/ammo affects CV I think you will see the Soviets able to stop/slow the quick moving german units more easily. Right now were only under 50% matters its not an issue fuel is really the only thing that matters to the germans. All in all with HQBU the Germans can do better than historically period. The slight nerf in .05 may be really all thats needed to get it to complete historical.

The germans were stopped by both casualties and logistics something the game still struggles to replicate but its getting close.

Yes the forward line was just there to buy time and not to give up the ground to easily, with Vitebsk as the Northern anchor and Denep as the South.

With plans to pull back to the next lines, but they don't exist.

[Huw Jones]

T6 North

Pulled back behind the Luga.

Looks like Pelton is going to push through around Novgorod.

But can still possibly push East from Pskov, where there are Arm resting.

[Huw Jones]

T6 Leningrad

Bombed the port, no damage, I had an airbase there and other close by, plus 5 AA battalions with the Air Command, thanks chaos45 AAR.

[Huw Jones]

T6 Vitebsk

Will try and hold the line, no second line yet to move back to.

I expect Pelton will attack straight forward, but also worried about Pelton crossing the Denper above Mogilev and encircling me, so spaced a few units behind the front off photo between Mogilev and the Deneper.

All Army HQs in the area have 4 sapper regiments, but I doubt the Reserve front forts will reach 1 by next turn.

[Huw Jones]

T6 South

I expect Pelton will try and cross in T7 where the Kharkov front is located and move in the direction of Poltava.

So put my best units there.

Also put a good Mech in Poltava.

[Huw Jones]

T7 North, no real change, I think the Arm around Pskov has now gone South.

T7 Smolensk

Smolensk falls, smashed through limited second line as well, which honestly was a relief, a I was bit worried he might try an encircling across the Denepr above Mogilev as well, as smashing through.

Abandoned most of the Denper.

More Reserves arrived, stripped a few units from the North, ran out of Admin points so will change the rear ones next turn.

[Huw Jones]

T7 Lvov Holdouts

Lvov Holdouts, last of them surrender this turn taking 700 mostly German allies with them. I mostly move into the mountains which threatens to cut rail lines in Hungary or Romanian, so the Germans are forced to send units there, tying them down for longer as they are more difficult to dig out, plus inflicting greater casualties.

[Huw Jones]

Poltava, the Denper is crossed, Poltava is attacked but the good Mech division halted the attack Armaments are locked, but a swift counter attack frees them for transport to the east.

If possible in the early game I like to have Motarised or Arm divisions in cities, they have a higher defense CV than Inf.

Heavy German interdiction this turn, no doubt knowing I would pull back, after a while the German fighters ran out of Supplies/Ammunition so bombers were attacking un-escorted, so killed 55 Bmrs and 9 Ftrs for the loss 95 Ftrs in the South.

[HITMAN202]

I have a negative view of interdiction. I set Air Doctrine Interdiction at 0%/0% because 1) as Axis I have never seen Russian interdiction hamper me and can not perceive it slowing Soviet movement to any significant degree (the dumb A1 is in charge), 2) the Luff is best used for ground attack/support, air supply, bombing ports et al in '41, and 3) or otherwise rest to build strength when really needed.

[Peltonx]

Turn 8 GHC Armaments: 90,000 Manpower: 31,000 VP: 178

Russian Units Destroyed after November 1st 1941
Corp:
Divisions:
Brigades:
SU:
AP total:
Stavka OOB: 4,288,000 + 176,000
GHC OOB:
Units in a Pocket: 1

Stavka has had to pull back in center and south.

AGN another 20 miles. I have very little here now all going to center.

[Peltonx]

AGC pushes east around Stavka first line of defense.

[Peltonx]

AGS has some hard going allot of CV in south.

[Peltonx]

At this point I feel the center is really as weak as I thought, the north and south Stavka has over committed.

I decide to go all in on the center.

[chaos45]

I would say your call is completely right......Soviets have to be elastic in 1941 not rigid....u get to be rigid on only 1 of the 3 fronts..which to me should be leningrad everything else is about absorbing the punches and trying not to get get burned to bad by pockets. Being elastic is the primary reason you hit a solid line right in front of Moscow in our game....as you chewed forward I lateralled units from north south to slowly strengthen the center as well was building roughly 2 entire reserve armies from fresh units in front of moscow. You can only do this lateral move if your North/South flanks stay ahead of the panzers in the center...if the panzers extend in the center past your N/S flanks you have to go back then move towards center...Soviets dont have the movement to execute that type of manuever warfare.

All those units u encircled in center-south on T13/14 were actually almost all southern front units by that point as I had shifted that entire front north from Kharkov and had already started shifting it some turns earlier and the entire western front was defending the front of moscow with the Reserve/Kalinin front behind/intermixed with it. Which is one reason I just turned and ran about then in the south as I was facing basically all of your AGS with only 1 one real front and 1 still forming front command and even the real front had been greatly weakend by the encirclements down there.

I ate alot of really bad pockets around T13/14 and then again on T17-18 because I tried to be to rigid and didnt bend enough. I was trying to bend but also buy more time...which time I bought but the cost was much higher than I wanted lol.

Looking foward to .05 and seeing what changes it has, even just the small supply changes I think might be just enough to slow down the blitzkrieg to closer to historical levels for those that know how to use HQBU....the issue might be that not using any HQBU might result in less than historical advances for the Axis.

Again Based on your advance a deeper draw back on T6 would have done wonders to preserve his situation. Let the panzers hit a screen/empty bag with strong points in terrain they dont dare enter- swamps/cities. Even if the swamp/city is encircled they will have to go around costing trucks/supply/time for the infantry to mop up...esp if you air re-supply the cities/swamps to keep them in somewhat decent fighting shape. Again not like they will fight hard but they will at least fight....the game almost needs a secondary combat table for isolated battles....if an isolated unit is say above 50% supplies and the option is surrender or fight it should put up a stiffer fight as they are cornered rats. Currently the game just options to surrender on a normal combat table.

Many board games use different combat tables for different types of fighting....think that would solve the pocket surrendering easy fiasco currently in the game. Maybe a table where isolated battles fight combat rounds till they are out of ammo or some such before surrendering not sure what game mechanics would need to change but that one would do wonders to improve historical accuracy of the game as it would increase German losses and possibly slow them some and get closer to the problem the pockets historically caused the Germans. After the border fighting most soviet pockets fought literally until they ran out of supplies/Ammo- not in this game.....Units with 100%+ supplies/ammo surrender after a token fight even in cities/swamps. Typically the Axis lose like 500 men to wipe out 1-2 Soviet divisions in those terrains with full supplies.

[chaos45]

For Soviet players out there.....One key thing I learned you need rear strong points.

Look at the map and try to anticipate the German players most likely moves- in Army parlance- S2 speak- you need to look at the enemies most likely course of action as well as the enemies most deadly course of action. Then plan your defense accordingly.

Even 1 decent strength division dug in at the right points on the map can have a massive effect on prevent a breakthrough from becoming an outright route of the Soviet Army. Find choke points that the Panzers/motorized units will be canalized into by terrain and put you few STR 3-4 divisions to dig in on those points esp when you retrograde your lines and your front is thinly dug-in/manned.

As most single panzer/motorized units cant shift a dug-in 3-4 str div on a hasty attack after moving alot of hexes. Yes it only buys you one turn but in the early game that turn is critical to retrograde the main line again. You need to keep at least some of these units in the back of your lines at all times just to be key blockers and prep a couple key positions as you retrograde. Also it usually prevents their encirclement. I only place them in the line when I want to hold a rigid line like your final stop lines in front of leningrad/moscow until then shift and dig just buying time. Against a player like Pelton counterattacking forward is often suicide and those units wont live to make guards anyway as they expend movement to coutnerattack then get surrounded. Only counterattack when safe from encirclement or at you Main lines of resistence.

Typically esp in the center...use the backstop divisions to dig in on clear hexes on rail lines with terrain to either side...some spots u need two divisions to cover both. This keeps the deep penetration by panzers more limited and allows you economy of force. Then when the main line retrogrades you put crappy divisions in the pre-built forts and terrain to the left and right using the terrain as your forts and your good divisions drop back to fortify the next choke point. Was my strategery anyway [8D]

[MattFL]

I was wondering whether Pelton would consolidate his gains in the center and ball up for another major push or if he would immediately press the advantage and disarray in the center. I guess he chose the latter and now the Soviet center is in real trouble.

HJ really needs to shift some forces off the Lovat river north and from the south to center immediately. Fall back off Gomel to Bryansk with a light screen to allow even more units to go with center. Without armor flipping hexes, it will take 3 turns for the GHC infantry to advance from Dnepr to Bryansk. And he probably needs to abandon those units that are ZOC locked to their fate. Counterattacking to free them is just going to put more units in harm's way. He needs 1 turn of breathing space to build a solid line so at this point he might even want to fall back all the way to his final Moscow defense line as GHC must be far off further than normal the railheads given their massive advances of the last 2 turns.

SHC could really use some mud about now....

SHC is ever resilient and HJ knows what he's doing, so I expect to see a pretty solid line in front of Moscow in Russian T9 Screens.....we'll see.

[Huw Jones]

ORIGINAL: mattp

I was wondering whether Pelton would consolidate his gains in the center and ball up for another major push or if he would immediately press the advantage and disarray in the center. I guess he chose the latter and now the Soviet center is in real trouble.

HJ really needs to shift some forces off the Lovat river north and from the south to center immediately. Fall back off Gomel to Bryansk with a light screen to allow even more units to go with center. Without armor flipping hexes, it will take 3 turns for the GHC infantry to advance from Dnepr to Bryansk. And he probably needs to abandon those units that are ZOC locked to their fate. Counterattacking to free them is just going to put more units in harm's way. He needs 1 turn of breathing space to build a solid line so at this point he might even want to fall back all the way to his final Moscow defense line as GHC must be far off further than normal the railheads given their massive advances of the last 2 turns.

SHC could really use some mud about now....

SHC is ever resilient and HJ knows what he's doing, so I expect to see a pretty solid line in front of Moscow in Russian T9 Screens.....we'll see.

I knew there was going to be a breakthrough in Smolensk and most likely in the South on T7.

I was planning on to pulling back from Dneper as far as D-Town area.

At the time I didn't think of it, BUT Gomel industry should have been completely evacuated T6 and the Army there with OK units, which were all close to the rail line should have been RR to the Center.

The units North and South of Gomel, could have expanded slightly, just making a light screen.

But HJ has not been on the ball here.

[MattFL]

ORIGINAL: Huw Jones



I knew there was going to be a breakthrough in Smolensk and most likely in the South on T7.

I was planning on to pulling back from Dneper as far as D-Town area.

At the time I didn't think of it, BUT Gomel industry should have been completely evacuated T6 and the Army there with OK units, which were all close to the rail line should have been RR to the Center.

The units North and South of Gomel, could have expanded slightly, just making a light screen.

But HJ has not been on the ball here.

Well, losing the Gomel industry isn't the end of the world. The delay in shifting those units on the northern Dnepr who are facing off 1/10th their number is the error as those boys could have shovels in hands. Still I think if he's going all in the center, then you have to as well.

As for the south, different players have different styles and my style in the south is to hold the Dnepr in massive strength and make the path of least resistance to AGS the D-Town area trying to prevent the Cherkassy crossing. Germans will take what is given and I like to give them that area pretty freely and then try to solidify the defense on the Don/Donets. I have other reasons for doing so as well related to my particular style, but I'd like to play Pelton at some point!

Really curious to see the next turns. For me, this part of the game (up to 10/9) is by far the most interesting as it's the most fluid and the most decisions are made which impact the entire course of the war.

[Huw Jones]

ORIGINAL: mattp

Well, losing the Gomel industry isn't the end of the world. The delay in shifting those units on the northern Dnepr who are facing off 1/10th their number is the error as those boys could have shovels in hands. Still I think if he's going all in the center, then you have to as well.

I could have done both and should have on T6, but didn't, but I like to look for what I could have done for the next game etc.