Using F-35s, F-22s, and stealth

[Tarawa565]

Hi guys,

Been playing around some in the scenario editor with various combinations of a/c. I was just curious how the rest of you typically employed your high end assets, especially in a mixed 4th, 5th gen environment.

One thing that seemed to work out well for me was to launch the F-35s, F-22s with a max endurance payload but have them act as a spotter of sorts using IRST - maybe coupled with data from an AEW platform. Then, have my 4th gen stuff volley off BVR missiles and ferry back and forth to the carrier/airfield to rearm. It cut down a lot on the amount of down time I had for the 5th gen assets, and - if they are weapons tight - sometimes I'd refuel and have them stay up for 10 hours.

Using the IRST, passive radar seemed to work best on kind of rainy/cloudy days. Lower detection range, but I *think* the tradeoff for added stealthiness was worth it.

With regards to strike, I pretty much treat them the same but have them go after higher risk targets and enjoy the added survivability.

I'm curious how people think they'll actually be employed or if anyone had any unique tactics they came up with.

[MR_BURNS2]

When the enemy has IRST i hide my stealth fighters in clouds if possible and get as close as 15NM, increasing the Pk considerably. They spot you around 40 NM with IRST and about 11-15 NM with radar, but bear in mind that some ground radars and AEW might spot you from farther away.

If there are no clouds i might try to get at them from outside IRST coverage, but i stay at a greater distance.

I NEVER use external loadouts, they give away stealth advantage.

[poaw]

ORIGINAL: Tarawa565

I'm curious how people think they'll actually be employed or if anyone had any unique tactics they came up with.

I hardly think that anyone's unique tactics aren't going to be independently "discovered" by many other players.

As for me I like using a vulnerable, high-value and unstealthy platform to pull out CAP/intercept fighters off-station and into an ambush. I position my stealthy fighters 30-50nmi astride their expected intercept course. As their sensor footprint passes I dash in my fighters and take them from the sides/rear without emitting, using IRST/off-board radars for a firing solution.

When I can't do that, I like to use them as a kind of missile sump for opposing fighters by taking a jamming platform and placing stealth fighters between the jammers and enemy fighters. I'd leave the jammers off until the red fighters engage then light it up in an attempt to prevent accurate midcourse guidance and force them to waste missiles before firing my own missiles and retreating while they try to push in and reacquire a firing solution.

[Primarchx]

ORIGINAL: MR_BURNS2

...

I NEVER use external loadouts, they give away stealth advantage.

Is that modeled in Command now? For a while external stores had no effect on a/c signature.

[Dimitris]

Yes, this has been explicitly modelled for a while now. A fair bit of work went into this.

Chad knows [;)]

[Primarchx]

Glad to hear it! I choose my loadouts based on operational realities so I usually use internal stores for stealth a/c any way.

[cf_dallas]

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Yes, this has been explicitly modelled for a while now. A fair bit of work went into this.

Chad knows [;)]

And appreciates.

[charlee22009]

Wait, so the listed rcs data in the database applies only to aircraft in a clean configuration? If I add 'external stores' which is almost always then it changes?

I mean with external stores to non stealth 4th Gen ac?

[Dimitris]

Yes.

[SeaQueen]

ORIGINAL: MR_BURNS2
I NEVER use external loadouts, they give away stealth advantage.

I might. There's certain threats that 5th Gen fighters are so far ahead of that it's better to just pile on the ordinance. MiG-21, MiG-25, or F-4 versus F-35 or F-22? I'll take more bombs/missiles/whatever. Old SA-2s versus F-35 or F-22? I'd rather have more weapons.

Now... if there's a J-20 or a Su-35 involved... I'll take stealth. An SA-20 or what not, stealth is good.

It all depends on the nature of the threat, and it's possible to construct "ripped from the headlines," scenarios where fourth, third and even second generation fighters, along with older weapons systems are attempting to defend against the highest technology fighters. North Korea, for instance still operates MiG-19s. There's still a ton of MiG-21s, MiG-25s and MiG-23s out there and they're probably going to keep them flying for decades. In those cases, I might prefer to carry more weapons over stealth.

[p1t1o]

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

ORIGINAL: MR_BURNS2
I NEVER use external loadouts, they give away stealth advantage.

I might. There's certain threats that 5th Gen fighters are so far ahead of that it's better to just pile on the ordinance. MiG-21, MiG-25, or F-4 versus F-35 or F-22? I'll take more bombs/missiles/whatever. Old SA-2s versus F-35 or F-22? I'd rather have more weapons.

Now... if there's a J-20 or a Su-35 involved... I'll take stealth. An SA-20 or what not, stealth is good.

It all depends on the nature of the threat, and it's possible to construct "ripped from the headlines," scenarios where fourth, third and even second generation fighters, along with older weapons systems are attempting to defend against the highest technology fighters. North Korea, for instance still operates MiG-19s. There's still a ton of MiG-21 and MiG-23s out there and they're probably going to keep them flying for decades. In those cases, I might prefer to carry more weapons over stealth.

Definitely. I can also see a situation with F22/35 vs high end opponents where, if I think I can outrange them, I might take a large AA load to lob at long range (where an increase in RCS is less of a disadvantage), not letting it get into a knife-fight and retreating when winchester with the stealth to keep me safe from counter-attack.

Question: If I take an external loadout, will my RCS get progressively smaller as I loose missiles? (ie: is RCS calculated on-the-fly?) If so, will there be a penalty for the empty hardpoints which will still be attached?

[Dimitris]

ORIGINAL: p1t1o
Question: If I take an external loadout, will my RCS get progressively smaller as I loose missiles? (ie: is RCS calculated on-the-fly?)

Yes.

If so, will there be a penalty for the empty hardpoints which will still be attached?

No, the drag & RCS penalties of pylons are rolled into the stores themselves.

[SeaQueen]

ORIGINAL: p1t1o
Definitely. I can also see a situation with F22/35 vs high end opponents where, if I think I can outrange them, I might take a large AA load to lob at long range (where an increase in RCS is less of a disadvantage), not letting it get into a knife-fight and retreating when winchester with the stealth to keep me safe from counter-attack.

That's the thing, all of this stuff is room for experimenting with the trade-offs. Do I want more weapons or more stealth? Maybe sometimes I want more of one thing and other times I want more of the other. The interesting thing about games like CMANO is that it lets you experiment with different ideas, and hopefully gain a little insight. A good scenario is one where you can play around with all these variables, from the fighter tactics (do I get in a dogfight or do I shoot all my BVR missiles and try to escape?) to the aircraft configurations. There shouldn't be a single answer, and lots of things might work.

[Tailhook]

So I'm doing Operation Lightning Strike (great scenario, by the way). As befitting the name, I plan on having F-22s escort in the B-2s for the strike on the target itself, with jammers at the AFG border. Now regarding loadouts, I am a little confused. A lot of the F-22 loadouts allow for Drop Tanks on the wings. However I do know this increases Radar Cross Sections. Do the tanks get jettisoned automatically when empty? Or is there any way to get the game logic to drop them? I want to fly them from Bahrain to Afghanistan with the bags, but when it comes time to turn in hot for Pakistan they'd go clean. I know I could get around this by having them land in Afghanistan, or set up a tanker chain, but I'm trying to avoid that. I also want to understand the game logic for the tanks.

[Cheechako]

ORIGINAL: Tailhook

So I'm doing Operation Lightning Strike (great scenario, by the way). As befitting the name, I plan on having F-22s escort in the B-2s for the strike on the target itself, with jammers at the AFG border. Now regarding loadouts, I am a little confused. A lot of the F-22 loadouts allow for Drop Tanks on the wings. However I do know this increases Radar Cross Sections. Do the tanks get jettisoned automatically when empty? Or is there any way to get the game logic to drop them? I want to fly them from Bahrain to Afghanistan with the bags, but when it comes time to turn in hot for Pakistan they'd go clean. I know I could get around this by having them land in Afghanistan, or set up a tanker chain, but I'm trying to avoid that. I also want to understand the game logic for the tanks.

I too have been wondering if F35s and F22s regain their lower LCS if they jettison their tanks.

[p1t1o]

Dont think drop tanks are modeled yet - apart from increased fuel carriage, obviously:

http://www.warfaresims.com/?page_id=2920#706